Christians: Why doesn't Satan repent?

[godnotgod]

Satan is a deceiver. He has deceived himself into believing he can Conquer Christ All Mighty.

He truly believes he will be victorious in the battle of Armageddon.

Are you sure you are not just talking yourself into believing that he won't?

What would victory consist of? Satan getting the lion's share of souls into hell? That already seems to be a done deal, does it not? Besides, God needs Satan to act as his Left Hand Man who carries out God's orders as Supreme Torturer of The Unrepentant. Someone's got to do the dirty work! So where is Christ's victory?

Did it ever occur to you that this Satan feller is nothing more than one's own Ego, whom we project onto some personification of Malicious Evil called Satan? That, instead of talking responsibility for our own faults, project them onto a scapegoat and then point the finger, calling it Evil?

In psychological terms, this is a well-known phenomenon known as Shadow, the opposite of Persona. Adolf Hitler used Shadow against the Jews first to dehumanize them (untermenschen) and then to systematically destroy them. Are we not unwittingly using this Satan feller (whom no one has ever seen) as an agent of our own Egotistic and Spiritual One Upsmanship Do Gooder Better Than Thou Pride which punishes those (the "sinner") whom we consider inferior to us, which ends up expressing itself in Absolute Pleasure for the Superior (Heaven) and Absolute Torture of the Inferior (Hell), since we have the added feature of "getting what one deserves"?

When all is said and done, will the Saved Souls in Heaven order a Heavenly Cappucino and take a nice easy chair right at the edge of Heaven, making themselves comfortable with their blankees, while peering down at the poor Unsaved Souls writhing in agony in the very pit of Hell, and thinking: "Tsk..tsk...they are getting exactly what they deserve! They were warned!"?

Is this the height of sadism, or what?

Puh-leaze!

 

[lockyfan]

I am not using scripture as a basis for my statement, but what most Christians actually believe, and that is that there is a heaven and a hell and that most people will go to hell.

Ye and this beleif does not come from the scriptures, which is what I was trying to tell you. It is a man made belief

Firstly, I did not say that was to be found in scripture, but in Christian doctrine. Secondly, I stated that, since Christians claim that God created everything, everything must, by definition, include evil. And thirdly, if you want scripture, which I am not referring to, In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet wrote of God: “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.”

Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things

Now, I know you want to interpret this your way to mean something else, but the verse clearly indicates that God creates evil.

Calamity not Evil.

There is a difference. A loving God (God is LOVE 1 John 4:8) would not vreate evil, nor will he actually test us with it.

When I say that God created evil, I am referring to the scenario he creates for Adam and Eve, which can only be described as malicious and evil. The only point that God seems to want to make is that of obedience to his dictate, so much so, that he banishes his poor innocent children from Paradise for something he set up in the first place. Of course, I don't for one minute buy any of this trash, since it is a corruption of the original story by the greedy temple priests as a clever means of terrorizing their congregation into coughing up their dimes to line their pockets with.

James 1:13
When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone

He did not set up the situation. He gave them everything they needed to get through that particular test of their faith and obedience to him, but he did not set that up. He knew Satan was going to try something and thus gave them the information to get through it. They chose not to bey, just as Satan chise not to obey.

The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God

God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness

Deu 32:4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.


Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (Joh 8:44; 1Jo 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring

Devil means Slanderer Satan Means Resister

But they did not die, so God did not mean what he said. He knew that by creating a taboo against eating the Forbidden Fruit, that Adam and Eve had no choice BUT to eat of it. How could they do otherwise? They did not stand a snowball's chance in hell, and God knew that. Or do you think God to be a fool?

Why I do not think that Jehovah is a fool. Because they did die. They died spiritually the moment that they sinned and they died physically within the 1000 years.

2Peter 3:8
However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

Also the reason for "Judgement Day" to be 1000 years long.

They did die. He passed the judgement at that moment not only on them but also at Genesis 3:15 He passed Satans Judgement as well by saying

And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel

This is also the first moment of us knowing that there was gonig to be a seed that would destroy hte wicked one known as Satan. This seed is actually Jesus Christ
Humans were not supposed to die to start wih, they were to live forever. Adam lost that for all humans, but Jesus gained it back, because his life was a ransom for what Adam lost.

Romans 5:12-17
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.

But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many. Also, it is not with the free gift as it was with the way things worked through the one [man] that sinned. For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness. For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person], Jesus Christ.

Ah, but it was God who created Satan in the first place. Satan's existence was entirely dependent upon God's hand, so therefore, all that was Satan was of God, and that included his rebellious nature, his pride, and his sin. But, you see, all of this points to the fact that it was not God who wrote the Bible, but man. We are looking at a description of the mind of God as seen through the mind of man. The Bible does not reflect the mind of God. God's mind does not work in the way the Bible describes it. I can give you many examples.

I would like those examples thanks the scrptures would be much appreciated so I can look for myself.

But

Jehovah created the Perfect Angel that later changed into satan. Just like the Angels that forsook their proper dwelling place in Noahs day and had relations with the human women and created their evil offspring the Nephilim, Satan was the same as them to start with, but allowed desire to lure him into become the "father of the lie" Just as their desire for the human women moved them to lure themselves to become what we know today as the Demons

 

[lockyfan]

"Good" can here be seen in two ways: 'good', in that it was harmonious, beautiful, and pleasing to the senses, or "morally good" as opposed to "morally evil". We can eliminate his creation as being morally good since that requires conscience, and the universe was not a living conscious entity, but a created thing, subject to the hand of God. It had no mind of its own. For the universe to be morally good, it would also necessarily need to be morally evil, since moral good is defined only in relation to moral evil. God would then have had to see that his creation was good and evil. And so, that leaves only with the idea that it was "good" in the sense that it was in balance. Having said that, I never said that it was good; I only said that it was in perfect balance, the universe actually being neither good nor bad. Those are value judgments you are superimposing over a naturally occurring system.
Because moral good is first mistakenly created out of a mental concept that something is "good". When this concept is created, its opposite, evil, is also automatically created, by default. Having created moral evil, it must now be fought, as dictated by the concept of moral good. In fighting evil, we only succeed in making evil stronger. Now we have real evil where none existed to begin with. Our current conflicts against what we see as moral evil in Iraq and Afghanistan are current examples.

The only thingsin the universe that were created to be able to think like this are Humans.

So your concept of hte universe being good or bad is a little flawed as it is Humans who are, nothing else. It is OUR thoughts and decisions in life that get us to decide who we are. So there really is no difference between "good"or "morally good"and the same way for evil.

The bible clearly states in the end of Revelaion that Good overcomes Evil anyway.

Revelation 22:14-17
Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’ “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’” And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.

This whole world is evil. it is the "present system of things" in which satan is the ruler. This is, thankfully on its last legs now, as Jehovah and Jesus are preparing for Armageddon as we type on our keyboards.


Romans 12:2
And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God

Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved— and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, that in the coming systems of things there might be demonstrated the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus

That is not necessary. Jesus is saying that evil can only be addressed by requiting hatred with virtue. In other words, do only good to those who do evil against you. The implication here is that, by opposing evil, by trying to "conquer" it via force, you only achieve the opposite result.

No actually he is telling us to wait for God. Anyone paying evil to you do not pay back that evil because

Romans 12:19
Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.”

So it is Gods place return their evil with a righteous judgement.

Just like all the times he did to the Israelites

Excuse me, but that sounds like an accusation. Where are the forum rules that I must use the Bible as a reference?

Excuse me, but the Tao te Ching is 81 chapters long, of which this is only a partial excerpt of one of them.

I was merely noticing that you were using the words of men rather than the words of God.

What? Are your udders all in a bunch that, just because something has more words to it that you are afraid it has more validity to it? That is plain silly!

More words to what?

No one is mocking any such God. Only foolish and cocksure men who think they know who and what God is are being mocked.

:thud:
So according to you we are not meant to know who God is then?

Satan is a deceiver. He has deceived himself into believing he can Conquer Christ All Mighty.

He truly believes he will be victorious in the battle of Armageddon.

Actually he knows he wont be. Rev 12:12
On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.


So therefore he knows that he only has a short time left and what is in store for him. Also he was told in the Garden of Eden at Genesis 3:15 that he was also judged and was to die.

 

[godnotgod]

Ye and this beleif does not come from the scriptures, which is what I was trying to tell you. It is a man made belief

So are the scriptures. Why do you think Jesus told his audience that they were mistaken to think to find eternal life within the scriptures? Who do you think wrote the scriptures, if not men?

Besides, it is what people actually believe that is important, not what they don't believe. The scriptures are useless unless people take them seriously.

Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

Calamity not Evil.

There is a difference. A loving God (God is LOVE 1 John 4:8) would not create evil, nor will he actually test us with it.

But he did do exactly that by planting a poisonous but tempting fruit in the Garden right under the noses of his children, and then commanding them not to eat of it, knowing full well that it would be impossible to resist the temptation. That is an evil mind in my book.

Deliberately creating calamity is the same as creating evil. Both are intentional, with the same results. The difference is in words only.

If a young boy throws small boulders from a freeway overpass for the purpose of creating calamity, and there are deaths as a result, is there any evil involved or not?

Your God's calamity is far, far worse. If that is love, you can trash it.

He did not set up the situation.

No one else was around, so God had to have been the culprit. The serpent only made his appearance after God set up the scene.

 

[godnotgod]

Why I do not think that Jehovah is a fool. Because they did die. They died spiritually the moment that they sinned and they died physically within the 1000 years.

God did not say anything about spiritual vs physical death. The scripture only reads that they would die, period. You are adding things in that are not there to suit your view. The fact is that they did not die. What this means is that God did not mean what He said. So the story has another meaning, one which you would have to understand intuitively rather than literally, which is what you are doing.

Man has always died a physical death even today after the Crucifixion. There is no such thing as spiritual death. There is only the delusion that you are separated from the One Source. You are never separated from that Source, since the Source permeates all things. The separation is only in your mind. In fact, there is no such thing as physical death either. What we call death is but a transformation from one state to another.

I would like those examples thanks the scrptures would be much appreciated so I can look for myself.

Read Deuteronomy 20, as one example, which illustrates a God who plays favorites, a God who is a mass murderer, a God who is a racist, and a God who is jealous. All of these are human traits. They have nothing to do with the divine essence. If you do not understand this, then you are trying to understand God via of words and descriptions only, and that is impossible.

Jehovah created the Perfect Angel that later changed into satan. Just like the Angels that forsook their proper dwelling place in Noahs day and had relations with the human women and created their evil offspring the Nephilim, Satan was the same as them to start with, but allowed desire to lure him into become the "father of the lie" Just as their desire for the human women moved them to lure themselves to become what we know today as the Demons

Look, I don't wish to argue with you over scripture and its meanings. The bottom line is this: you are providing information which is a reflection of your belief. Belief is not reality. It is a model of reality, and as such, cannot be proven. Do not make statements based upon belief as if they were Absolute Truth. They are not. I am presenting information on what I see, not on what I believe.

There is a huge difference between what one believes and what one experiences in the spiritual sense. That is exactly and precisely what Jesus was trying to get across.

You are sitting in a room reading about the Pentecost. Then you close your Bible and put it on a shelf, and go to an open window, whereupon tongues of fire descend upon your forehead, putting you into a state of ecstatic spiritual trance for several weeks after that.

That is the difference I am referring to.

Having said that, is it at all possible for you to provide the basis for your beliefs?

 

[godnotgod]

The only things in the universe that were created to be able to think like this are Humans.

So your concept of the universe being good or bad is a little flawed as it is Humans who are, nothing else. It is OUR thoughts and decisions in life that get us to decide who we are. So there really is no difference between "good"or "morally good"and the same way for evil.

There is a huge difference: moral good is a value that is superimposed over the natural order of things. The Sun, on the other hand, is intrinsically 'good' in the sense that it's life giving rays are beneficial and essential to all living things. It's goodness is not a moral good; it is amoral.

However, the real meaning of the Biblical God's exclamation that his creation was 'good' is closer to him actually thinking: "It is good because I am good".

Since evil arose from within the 'good' creation, it, too, must be 'good'.

The bible clearly states in the end of Revelaion that Good overcomes Evil anyway.

If that is true, then why does God allow Hell to continue on into eternity after all is said and done? Hell is the most evil of all places.

I was merely noticing that you were using the words of men rather than the words of God.

You were
noticing wrongly: the words you call God's are of men only.

So according to you we are not meant to know who God is then?

You cannot know God with the mind that you now have. It must first be spiritually transformed in order for you to see on the same level that God does. That, again, is what Jesus was trying to say: that reading the scriptures is not going to get you eternal life. You must come to the spirit first. Otherwise, the cart is ahead of the horse, you see?

 

[godnotgod]

Originally Posted by godnotgod
That is not necessary. Jesus is saying that evil can only be addressed by requiting hatred with virtue. In other words, do only good to those who do evil against you. The implication here is that, by opposing evil, by trying to "conquer" it via force, you only achieve the opposite result.

No actually he is telling us to wait for God. Anyone paying evil to you do not pay back that evil....

No, actually, he was saying to requite hatred with virtue:

Matthew 38-48:

An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[godnotgod]

Actually he [Satan] knows he wont be [victorious]. Rev 12:12
On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.

So therefore he knows that he only has a short time left and what is in store for him. Also he was told in the Garden of Eden at Genesis 3:15 that he was also judged and was to die.

What is in store for him? He will be sitting pretty, since his is the lion's share of souls, and since he is given eternal life and since he is appointed premier Torturer of Unrepentant Souls in Hell for all Eternity. He won't be suffering at all! He will be laughing his asss off!:biglaugh:

 

[2nd mouse]

Hello everyone, I'd like to add my 2 cents to this thread. Most every poster is basing their posts on a misunderstanding of what evil is.

God did not create evil.

Evil is not a force unto itself.

Evil is the absence of positive energy. Evil is the absence of goodness. When God removed His spirit from man it left a vacum. That vacum is filled by evil.

Drakness likewise is not a force or property unto itself. Darkness is the absence of light energy. It has no energy itself.

Cold is not a force or property unto itself. Cold is the absence of heat energy. Cold has no energy itself.

You cannot create cold, you can only remove the existing heat energy.
You cannot create darkness, you can only remove the existing light enerygy.
And you cannot create evil, you can only remove the existing good energy.

 

[McBell]

Hello everyone, I'd like to add my 2 cents to this thread. Most every poster is basing their posts on a misunderstanding of what evil is.

God did not create evil.

Evil is not a force unto itself.

Evil is the absence of positive energy. Evil is the absence of goodness. When God removed His spirit from man it left a vacum. That vacum is filled by evil.

Drakness likewise is not a force or property unto itself. Darkness is the absence of light energy. It has no energy itself.

Cold is not a force or property unto itself. Cold is the absence of heat energy. Cold has no energy itself.

You cannot create cold, you can only remove the existing heat energy.
You cannot create darkness, you can only remove the existing light enerygy.
And you cannot create evil, you can only remove the existing good energy.

Please cite the source of this unique definition of 'evil'

 

[2nd mouse]

Please cite the source of this unique definition of 'evil'

It's not something that can be proven like the statement of cold and darkness. It's an opinion based on observation and reasonable consideration.

Is a truth more or less true because someone agrees or disagrees with it?

Consider it for yourself. You don't need a source.

 

[McBell]

It's not something that can be proven like the statement of cold and darkness. It's an opinion based on observation and reasonable consideration.

Is a truth more or less true because someone agrees with it?

Consider it for yourself. You don't need a source.

And this is nothing more than your attempt to justify your Humpty Dumpty definition.

Though, if that is how you want to define it, then by all means go for it.
Just don't be surprised if you will need to present your Humpty Dumpty definition every time as to avoid confusion.

 

[2nd mouse]

And this is nothing more than your attempt to justify your Humpty Dumpty definition.

Though, if that is how you want to define it, then by all means go for it.
Just don't be surprised if you will need to present your Humpty Dumpty definition every time as to avoid confusion.

Ouch! I guess you put me in my place , huh?

 

[McBell]

Ouch! I guess you put me in my place , huh?

What are you talking about?

I merely stated that you may well have to provide your unique Humpty Dumpty definition whenever you use the word.
Why?
Because that is not how the vast majority of people define it.

 

[godnotgod]

Hello everyone, I'd like to add my 2 cents to this thread. Most every poster is basing their posts on a misunderstanding of what evil is.

God did not create evil.

Evil is not a force unto itself.

Evil is the absence of positive energy. Evil is the absence of goodness. When God removed His spirit from man it left a vacum. That vacum is filled by evil.

Drakness likewise is not a force or property unto itself. Darkness is the absence of light energy. It has no energy itself.

Cold is not a force or property unto itself. Cold is the absence of heat energy. Cold has no energy itself.

You cannot create cold, you can only remove the existing heat energy.
You cannot create darkness, you can only remove the existing light enerygy.
And you cannot create evil, you can only remove the existing good energy.

You have not told us what the nature of evil is; you have only defined it in a negative way, and in relation to what good is.

You cannot define what is good without having a concept of evil. They are completely relative values.

Having said that, there is something called Absolute Good, and it encompasses both relative good and relative evil.

You stated that 'darkness has no energy itself'; black holes suck light in, so they must be energy sources.

As for 'God creating evil', I was referring to it only in the context of the Christian doctrine. In other words, I was turning the Christian argument around to show that evil in the Christian cosmogony can only have come from God.

In reality, what we refer to as good and evil are human concepts superimposed upon a God and a Devil that we ourselves create.

The great psychiatrist, Carl Jung, tells us that the positive idea we hold of ourselves is our Persona, while the negative ideas of ourselves is our Shadow. The Persona is how we see ourselves and how we want others to see us. It is a mask. Shadow is all of those negative traits that we do not want to be, which are stored away in our hidden minds, but which we project onto others in the form of the scapegoat. Hitler used Shadow on a national scale against the Jews in dehumanizing them by labeling them with his Shadow as untermenschen, ie, 'sub-human'. We want to be on the 'good' side; the 'superior' side; the 'acceptable' side; and so, we seek out the ideal we call God, and condemn those we see as inferior, or sinful or evil. This is how we create divisions where none actually exist. It is a function of the Ego and its bid for supremacy. We deny our own wrongdoing by blaming a Devil, which we also have created.

 

[2nd mouse]

You have not told us what the nature of evil is; you have only defined it in a negative way, and in relation to what good is.

I don't see how you can otherwise define it.

You cannot define what is good without having a concept of evil. They are completely relative values.

I think I agree with that.

Having said that, there is something called Absolute Good, and it encompasses both relative good and relative evil.

My perspective on that is that the God of the Bible is "absolute good". But there is no evil in God.

You stated that 'darkness has no energy itself'; black holes suck light in, so they must be energy sources.

The darkness of a black hole is not a force unto itself but a mere result of some separate energy.

In reality, what we refer to as good and evil are human concepts superimposed upon a God and a Devil that we ourselves create.

You mean like persona and shadow?
What is persona and shadow if not good and evil?

The great psychiatrist, Carl Jung, tells us that the positive idea we hold of ourselves is our Persona, while the negative ideas of ourselves is our Shadow. The Persona is how we see ourselves and how we want others to see us. It is a mask. Shadow is all of those negative traits that we do not want to be, which are stored away in our hidden minds, but which we project onto others in the form of the scapegoat. Hitler used Shadow on a national scale against the Jews in dehumanizing them by labeling them with his Shadow as untermenschen, ie, 'sub-human'. We want to be on the 'good' side; the 'superior' side; the 'acceptable' side; and so, we seek out the ideal we call God, and condemn those we see as inferior, or sinful or evil. This is how we create divisions where none actually exist. It is a function of the Ego and its bid for supremacy. We deny our own wrongdoing by blaming a Devil, which we also have created.

Please don't take this personaly, but to me this just sounds like humanistic intellectual gobldygook.

 

[McBell]

I don't see how you can otherwise define it.

Well.
There is this certain book that is mainly for the purpose of defining words.
We often call it a Dictionary.
Interestingly enough, your preferred definition is not in it.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't see how you can otherwise define it.

We could start by noting that it is purely conceptual and arbitrary.

I think I agree with that.

Well, if you agree that good and evil are interdependent, then evil does not exist perse. It is purely a relative value, wholly dependent upon its opposite. It is defined only in terms of what is good, which is also an arbitrarily determined concept.

My perspective on that is that the God of the Bible is "absolute good". But there is no evil in God.

I suppose we should first establish that the God of the Bible is real. That has not yet been determined. So to say that he is good is jumping the gun. Both are beliefs only, and what is of paramount importance is not whether they are true or not, but why you choose to believe them as being true. Can you tell us why you have chosen thusly?

The darkness of a black hole is not a force unto itself but a mere result of some separate energy.

It is now believed in some circles that black holes do not actually exist, and that they are, instead, "dark energy stars". It is also thought by others that dark energy can escape from black holes. Dark energy is now thought to be responsible for the expansion of the universe, as it is not affected by gravity nor the pull of black holes.

You mean like persona and shadow?
What is persona and shadow if not good and evil?

Persona and shadow, like good and evil, are superimposed values that are mental concepts only. We act upon them, but they are not based upon reality, but models of reality. Now, negative results come about as a result of basing our actions upon them, simply because they do not coincide with what is real. The resulting conflict is sometimes called evil. To act upon a concept of what you think is moral good can only result in moral evil because you are trying to force the world to conform to your model of reality. We want the world to conform to the moral model that the God of the Bible is portrayed as, but that is impossible, because we are asking nature to go against itself.

Persona and shadow are not thought of as good or evil, but more like positive and negative attributes. However, actions based upon the ideas within persona and shadow can result in what we might call social evil, as in the case of Hitler's use of Shadow in dehumanizing and exterminating the Jews. Though the world saw this as evil, Hitler saw it as good, since it was for him the culling of 'inferior' humans for the sake of a pure race. America actually passed a genocidal law called the Indian Removal Act which served to systematically exterminate American Indian peoples in the name of some value deemed as "good" called Manifest Destiny. Indians were seen as savage, uncivilized, and unChristian heathens who stood in the way of American "progress". Christians think of themselves as morally superior (their Persona) and in the class of the "saved", in turn projecting their Shadow onto the sinners, allowing them to think approvingly of their condemnation to some hell; they are getting "what they deserve". Of course, they can do this without guilt because they hide behind the color of divine authority which is the official agent of such condemnation. "Dom't blame ME! GOD is the one who is doing it!" Condemnation is not just OK, it is necessary, necessary, that is, as a device to keep the believers believing in their own moral superiority and their deserving of a place in 'Heaven'. This would not be possible were it not for the class of the unsaved sinners in hell. The good are wholly dependent for their goodness on the bad, so much so, that in the Christian scenario, hell goes on forever and ever, as it must.

Good and evil are purely subjective and relative.

Please don't take this personaly, but to me this just sounds like humanistic intellectual gobldygook.

What is it about the statement that you do not comprehend? It is possible that I was not clear enough, and perhaps I can explain myself more clearly. Or is it that you just have a prejudice against humanism and the intellect?

 

[2nd mouse]

We could start by noting that it is purely conceptual and arbitrary.


Well, if you agree that good and evil are interdependent, then evil does not exist perse. It is purely a relative value, wholly dependent upon its opposite. It is defined only in terms of what is good, which is also an arbitrarily determined concept.


I suppose we should first establish that the God of the Bible is real. That has not yet been determined. So to say that he is good is jumping the gun. Both are beliefs only, and what is of paramount importance is not whether they are true or not, but why you choose to believe them as being true. Can you tell us why you have chosen thusly?

Well just going by the implications of the thread title, I fugure we can for the sake of this discussion assume that God and Satan both are real. Frankly that is what I believe and the perspective my responses are based on. As far why I chose to believe that or how I came to that decision I don't think bears on the discussion. If you need that info however I am not opposed to giving it, but it's the same as most people who believe sincerely in God.

It is now believed in some circles that black holes do not actually exist, and that they are, instead, "dark energy stars". It is also thought by others that dark energy can escape from black holes. Dark energy is now thought to be responsible for the expansion of the universe, as it is not affected by gravity nor the pull of black holes.

yeah.... I've heard such theories. I consider them speculation.

Persona and shadow, like good and evil, are superimposed values that are mental concepts only. We act upon them, but they are not based upon reality, but models of reality. Now, negative results come about as a result of basing our actions upon them, simply because they do not coincide with what is real. The resulting conflict is sometimes called evil. To act upon a concept of what you think is moral good can only result in moral evil because you are trying to force the world to conform to your model of reality. We want the world to conform to the moral model that the God of the Bible is portrayed as, but that is impossible, because we are asking nature to go against itself.

Applying force to anything creates conflict in some form or fashion. Thats just physics.

Persona and shadow are not thought of as good or evil, but more like positive and negative attributes. However, actions based upon the ideas within persona and shadow can result in what we might call social evil, as in the case of Hitler's use of Shadow in dehumanizing and exterminating the Jews. Though the world saw this as evil, Hitler saw it as good, since it was for him the culling of 'inferior' humans for the sake of a pure race. America actually passed a genocidal law called the Indian Removal Act which served to systematically exterminate American Indian peoples in the name of some value deemed as "good" called Manifest Destiny. Indians were seen as savage, uncivilized, and unChristian heathens who stood in the way of American "progress". Christians think of themselves as morally superior (their Persona) and in the class of the "saved", in turn projecting their Shadow onto the sinners, allowing them to think approvingly of their condemnation to some hell; they are getting "what they deserve". Of course, they can do this without guilt because they hide behind the color of divine authority which is the official agent of such condemnation. "Dom't blame ME! GOD is the one who is doing it!" Condemnation is not just OK, it is necessary, necessary, that is, as a device to keep the believers believing in their own moral superiority and their deserving of a place in 'Heaven'. This would not be possible were it not for the class of the unsaved sinners in hell. The good are wholly dependent for their goodness on the bad, so much so, that in the Christian scenario, hell goes on forever and ever, as it must.

I follow your reasoning here. But it is important to remember that you are talking about 'Christians" and not Christianity. You do yourself a major disservice to judge Christianity by the actions of the "christians". I will say though that I understand why and how this has happened, but thatis another monster thread.

Good and evil are purely subjective and relative.

What is it about the statement that you do not comprehend? It is possible that I was not clear enough, and perhaps I can explain myself more clearly. Or is it that you just have a prejudice against humanism and the intellect?

No, in regards to my somewhat inappropriate "gobbldy-gook" comment. That was more a reflex response that I admittedly use prematurely at times. Usually when i find myself out matched intellectually or when a responder resorts to quoting other people opinions and research instead of responding from their heart. I don't have a blanket prejudice against humanism and intellect. But from my perspective, life experience, and my spiritual beliefs, I know that those are the 2 most powerful tools of Satan. They instill and propagate pride in mankind. Humanism at it's core is anti God and intellectualism is the food of humanists.

 

[McBell]

They instill and propagate pride in mankind.

No more so than anything else.

Humanism at it's core is anti God and intellectualism is the food of humanists.

what a weak god you must worship.