Christians: Was God Once A Man?

[Aqualung]

Thanks Aqualung, for reading some of it, the 2nd part, of what the Bible has to say is what concerns me most, if you could give me some feedback, I'd appreciate that a bunch, thanks again!

Ummm, if you bring them up one by one. But again, just scanning through it, it's all just interpretation. I just don't think the correct interpretation is yours.

 

[Abram]

Wow! This is something I have never heard in my life. What a head trip. But I can see how one would see it this way. Something I am definitely going to do more investigating on. In this point of view was God a man like us, living under another God?

 

[Katzpur]

Wow! This is something I have never heard in my life. What a head trip. But I can see how one would see it this way. Something I am definitely going to do more investigating on. In this point of view was God a man like us, living under another God?

Abram,

This teaching is not an official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In otherwords, it has never been canonized and is not taught in LDS Church worship services or Sunday School classes. It's a teaching that is more or less an extention of another teaching that is canonical -- that being that God has given man the potential to progress forever, eventually even being able to become "godlike" in his attributes. If man can eventually become like God, it's not really such a great stretch to consider that God may have (at a time "before the beginning", before the clock started ticking, so to speak) have been a mortal being. But note, I did say "may have." As to what took place before God created the heavens and the earth, only God knows!

I read a little parable/analogy awhile back that does a pretty good job of explaining how this might work. I don't have time to write it up right now, though. But if you'd like, I will do so when I get a few minutes.

 

[Abram]

Abram,

This teaching is not an official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In otherwords, it has never been canonized and is not taught in LDS Church worship services or Sunday School classes. It's a teaching that is more or less an extention of another teaching that is canonical -- that being that God has given man the potential to progress forever, eventually even being able to become "godlike" in his attributes. If man can eventually become like God, it's not really such a great stretch to consider that God may have (at a time "before the beginning", before the clock started ticking, so to speak) have been a mortal being. But note, I did say "may have." As to what took place before God created the heavens and the earth, only God knows!

I read a little parable/analogy awhile back that does a pretty good job of explaining how this might work. I don't have time to write it up right now, though. But if you'd like, I will do so when I get a few minutes.

Please do I would love to hear it... The part that sticks out in all this is in Genesis when God said "they are now like us, knowing good and evil"

 

[TheGreaterGame]

"God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He the son of man that He should repent." Num 24:23

 

[Katzpur]

Please do I would love to hear it... The part that sticks out in all this is in Genesis when God said "they are now like us, knowing good and evil"

Okay, here's the story. I don't know how worthwhile you will find it, but it made sense to me in terms of how God has always been God but may have once been a man:

Laura worked in a store of a large supermarket chain, climbing up the ranks from stocker, to cashier, to assistant supervisor, to supervisor, to assistant manager. After being assistant manager for several years, she was transferred to a new store. It was going to be opened within a month and she was to be its new store manager. This new store was located in a small town several states away.



She managed this store for thirty-five years and finally retired when the store was closed due to down-sizing. She was well-known and liked by her workers and customers in the community. She was known by everyone as the store manager since there was only one supermarket in town. At her retirement party, Joey, a life-long friend of hers, spoke about working with Laura when they were both cashiers. People in the community were surprised (some were outraged!) since they’d always thought of Laura as a store manager and not a cashier. Those who only knew of Laura from the time she was a store manager ridiculed Joey, saying he was wrong since Laura was a store manager and was never a cashier.



Were the different view of Joey and the community contradictory? No. The community only understood Laura’s relationship with their own particular store whereas Joey, who could see “the big picture”, viewed Laura’s position within a much larger framework. The community only knew that Laura was always the store manager. There weren’t any store managers before her and there weren’t going to be any after her. She was there before the store opened and she was there after it closed.



What did Laura do before she became the store manager? This was a mystery to the community since they never thought to ask, always thinking of her as the store manager.

Again, the idea that God was once a man is not official doctrine, though I would say that it is believed to one extent or another by most Latter-day Saints. We definitely do believe that God has given us the potential to progress eternally. You know how long eternity is? You could go far if given an eternity to learn and grow! We believe that God wants each of us to develop his full potential and is glorified, rather than threatened, by our growth.

 

[joeboonda]

Nice little story, but here is what the Word of God, the Bible says from the link I cited above:

What the Bible Says About God


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1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.

"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12


"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6

"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25

The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.


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2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.

"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4


"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9

"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17

"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5

"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142

The LDS god achieved holiness.


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3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.

"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13,14,28


"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5

The LDS god had to learn everything.


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4. ALL POWERFUL

"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6


"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20

The LDS god attained his power.


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5. OMNIPRESENT

"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1


"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24

The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.


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6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24


"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6

"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6

The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.


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7. NO OTHER GODS

"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11


"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6&8

"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5&9

"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8

The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.


I will take this over some made up story, which you and Joseph Smith seem to be quite good at. But it is a manmade story, and not GODS WORD.

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[Katzpur]

Joe/Mike.

I don't know what gives you the right to make statements about what the Latter-day Saints believe. Why don't you stick to what you believe instead of trying to educate people about what I believe. Trust me, you're doing one heck of a lousy job of it.

To illustrate your beliefs, you quoted from the Bible. You followed each group of scriptures with a misleading statement about my beliefs. If you will take each of the statements you posted in red and provide evidence for them from the LDS Standard Works, I'll consider continuing this conversation.

Here's a list of acceptable sources:
The Holy Bible (KJV)
The Book of Mormon
The Doctrine and Covenants
The Pearl of Great Price

Thank you,

Kathryn

 

[joeboonda]

Okay, thank you for talking with me. Now, you say the RED LETTER statements were not your church's beliefs, but they were the beliefs of your church's founders and prophets as seen by their statements below: I know I am not citing the sources you gave, forgive me, time does not permit me tonite to do it justice, I admit that. (and forgive me for not typing it out by hand if you would, this is also from the link cited above)

LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...



It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6).



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LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:

"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov.16, 1859, p.290).





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LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:

"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).





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LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:

"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept.19, 1936, p.2).





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LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:

"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64)





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LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:

"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p.129).





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LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:

"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)





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LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:

"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.245).





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LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:

"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p.54).





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LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:

"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431).




Okay, this is what they said, and I showed what the Bible said (which is actually the 2nd half of this article, I am omitting, as it is in my above post). So if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young believed these things and based their church on them, and they are God's prophets who tell God's truth, it seems to me they are contradicting direct statements of the Bible. That is just me, I know we understand things differently, that's okay, I understand and admire you. But can you see where I see a conflict there? Again, thanks for inter-acting with me, I know I can seem crude and combative, I really am trying to discuss things in love, so have patience with me, I am a Christian, with very flawed character, God is still working on me!

Enjoyed conversing as always,

Michael


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[Katzpur]

I know I am not citing the sources you gave, forgive me, time does not permit me tonite to do it justice, I admit that. (and forgive me for not typing it out by hand if you would)

You found time to cut and paste, joeboonda. You always seem to be able to find time for that. If you're going to just cut and paste, as you've been told on numerous occasions not to do, why not cut and paste from our Church's official website. It would be just as easy. I'm not playing your stupid game, buddy. I've asked for quotes from our official canon and you are evidently unable to provide any. Nice try, but no score.

 

[joeboonda]

You found time to cut and paste, joeboonda. You always seem to be able to find time for that. If you're going to just cut and paste, as you've been told on numerous occasions not to do, why not cut and paste from our Church's official website. It would be just as easy. I'm not playing your stupid game, buddy. I've asked for quotes from our official canon and you are evidently unable to provide any. Nice try, but no score.

Okay, you are right, you wanted quotes from your specific books. I used quotes by your prophets, and I apologize. One quote, though was from one of your books:

"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)

Now, and this is all me typing here,this ties in with what the prophets taught about how we will be like God, how we will have these 'spirit children' and be gods like God, repeating the same process by which God 'attained' Godhood, whereas the Bible says we cannot attain anything like that, that by the works of the Law no man shall be saved, but only by faith in Christ, by HIS Righteousness imputed unto us, all our righteousness being as filthy rags, the more we rub, the dirtier we become. Your book says they shall be from everlasting to everlasting, a term reserved in the Bible ONLY for God, as men are created beings on the 6th day of creation. Just like the Bible calls Satan an ANGEL, which are created beings like humans, with Jesus being begotten, NOT MADE, not a creation, but one with the creator having been with Him at the beginning of creation. He is not a spirit brother to Satan, Satan is only an angel, created, Jesus being begotten, as it says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and by Him all things were made...also see Colossians, whereby the Son all things were made and consist. And see how in Acts, 20:28 it says to feed the church of God which he purchased with His OWN blood, and Mathew, says Jesus is Emmanuel meaning GOD with us. So, Jesus is God, HE is from everlasting, and was in the beginning with God. He said before Abraham was I AM, a term used by God to describe himself. God is from everlasting, not his creation. I do not believe, according to the Bible that God ever had counselors, as He said, nor that He ever sinned, nor that He ever was a man. I am not sure if you believe He was, or you do not, you only really just yell at me for copying and pasting, which this is all me at the moment. Again, lets talk, relax, and be nice to each other. I present my belief here, at least I say what I think, not about you or your methods of debate, but about what I believe on theology. You call me 'buddy' sarcastically, well, I still think we can be buddies even if we have some differences of ideas on some pretty hard to grasp subjects in the first place. I will see if I can present as valid and personal ideas, questions, and views as I can, with all the kindness and love I can. Sorry you feel how you do, I will keep trying to debate better and all, until next time,

Michael

 

[joeboonda]

http://www.afcministry.com/If_you_are_a_Mormon_please_read_this.htm

http://www.afcministry.com/What_do_Mormons_believe_about_God.htm

http://www.afcministry.com/Joseph_Smith_prophet.htm

Hello, again, all. I am posting these links, the first is VERY short, explaining why I (we) are not ANTI-Mormon, and where I am coming from in my beliefs.

The next is about Joseph Smith's teaching, and I DO say Joseph Smith's and not what Mormons believe, (although he is their founder), and the last has to do with why we believe his teachings were wrong.

I only want to help, without pasting it here as I know ppl don't like it. For those who are truly searching for truth, it may be of help. These are Christian Apologists who are sincerely trying to teach the truth of God for those who dare to question these mysteries.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[nutshell]

Don't be fooled. Anti-Mormon is anti-Mormon whether "Christian Apologists" admit it or not.

 

[joeboonda]

Don't be fooled. Anti-Mormon is anti-Mormon whether "Christian Apologists" admit it or not.

Ok, I will say this, I consider you to be very, very wonderful people, that is all Mormons. You care about the things of God and study and defend your faith. I feel much closer to you all than to people who do not care one way or another about anything having to do with God and spirituality, and trying to be better people. So, while we differ, and I am providing links, or the standard Christian view, (mainline, or whatever), I still am not anti, or against anyone, and I think we are much closer than we may realize as we at least are all making an honest effort at learning more about God and Truth. Lol, I won't even ask if you read the links, no problem, just trying to convey that even though I may come across as a complete idiot, (I used to just be an idiot, then I got married, and now my wife complete's me), I really do not hate anyone nor am I against anyone, I just do not believe exactly the same. I have a friend, he is a good Christian, much better than me, but we do not agree on everything, and some fairly important things at that, but we do agree on a lot of things. I have a few friends like that actually, and we work together, and talk all the time, and even share our disagreements, without getting mad at each other. Now, I have talked to some who got so angry, I just don't bother, but I think that is their problem. Okay, rambling...'nite!

Mike