Christians and War... Christians ONLY!

[Scuba Pete]

Why does it seem that so many practicing Christians are War mongers? How do you justify a war of aggression in the light of Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek? In light of Jesus telling us to bless and do not curse those who hate us? How do you justify the hate that is war?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not all Christians are war mongers. but there are a lot of what I call OLD testament Christians about, These accept the more war like teaching of that testament over the peaceful teachings of Christ. Here in the UK this is remembrance Sunday, when we remember those who have laid down their lives in war.
This can seem like glorifying war but it is not, it is thanking them for sacrificing them selves for the freedom of those that come after.

I can only look forward to a time when Man will have learnt to settle their differences with out war and live in peace.

Terry_________________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land

 

[michel]

Not all Christians are war mongers. but there are a lot of what I call OLD testament Christians about, These accept the more war like teaching of that testament over the peaceful teachings of Christ. Here in the UK this is remembrance Sunday, when we remember those who have laid down their lives in war.
This can seem like glorifying war but it is not, it is thanking them for sacrificing them selves for the freedom of those that come after.

I can only look forward to a time when Man will have learnt to settle their differences with out war and live in peace.

Terry_________________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land

I second that with great enthusiasm. It is very coincidental that I got up this morning, and, as usual had a hearty sing......:biglaugh: (not overly approved of by the family, but it detracts my mind from the pain, until my medication kicks in)

This morning, I launched into 'Onward Christian Soldiers' which is one of my favourite Hymns. I was thinking at the time that ''Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war, with the Cross of jesus, Going on before.............." Was obviously not a "war hymn"
because of the marching as to war.

I can imagine though that non-Christians might interpret the hymn as one of an avenging proselytizing army.........especially in America , where you seem to have some etremists..........

 

[Scuba Pete]

We're in a "war" alright... but not a physical war:

II Corinthians 10:1 By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. NIV

 

[Scuba Pete]

Terry,

I avoided the use of "all" and used "many" for that very purpose. There are at least a FEW peacable Christians around.

 

[jeffrey]

This is tough. I think when it comes to defending our country from terrorists, I believe it is necessary. But alot of the terrorism against us now is because of us sticking our nose in places it does not belong. I do not believe it is America's job to police the world. But I also believe that if an extremist group got ahold of a nuke, say goodby to NYC.

 

[jonny]

Your thread reminded me of a talk that our Prophet gave called "War and Peace." He gave this talk in April 2003.

In the talk he quoted two scriptures - D&C 98:16 "Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace..." and Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, and in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

He said:

The question arises, “Where does the Church stand in all of this?” First, let it be understood that we have no quarrel with the Muslim people or with those of any other faith. We recognize and teach that all the people of the earth are of the family of God. And as He is our Father, so are we brothers and sisters with family obligations one to another.

But as citizens we are all under the direction of our respective national leaders. They have access to greater political and military intelligence than do the people generally. Those in the armed services are under obligation to their respective governments to execute the will of the sovereign. When they joined the military service, they entered into a contract by which they are presently bound and to which they have dutifully responded.

One of our Articles of Faith, which represent an expression of our doctrine, states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law” (Articles of Faith 1:12).

But modern revelation states that we are to “renounce war and proclaim peace” (D&C 98:16).

In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally. However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation.

When war raged between the Nephites and the Lamanites, the record states that “the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for . . . power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

“And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God” (Alma 43:45–46).

The Lord counseled them, “Defend your families even unto bloodshed” (Alma 43:47).

And Moroni “rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

“And he fastened on his headplate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren” (Alma 46:12–13).

It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.

When all is said and done, we of this Church are people of peace. We are followers of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Prince of Peace. But even He said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34).

This places us in the position of those who long for peace, who teach peace, who work for peace, but who also are citizens of nations and are subject to the laws of our governments. Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy. I believe that God will not hold men and women in uniform responsible as agents of their government in carrying forward that which they are legally obligated to do. It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.

So, I guess the question is what are we fighting for and why are we doing it? I'm not so sure anymore that the war we are fighing in Iraq was justified under what our prophet taught.


It just so happened that the war with Afghanistan started on the same day as the LDS church general conference. I happened to be sitting in conference and heard from the mouth of our prophet that the war had started. At that time he gave us this council:

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty (see Alma 48:10).

On the Larry King television broadcast the other night, I was asked what I think of those who, in the name of their religion, carry out such infamous activities. I replied, "Religion offers no shield for wickedness, for evil, for those kinds of things. The God in whom I believe does not foster this kind of action. He is a God of mercy. He is a God of love. He is a God of peace and reassurance, and I look to Him in times such as this as a comfort and a source of strength."

Members of the Church in this and other nations are now involved with many others in a great international undertaking. On television we see those of the military leaving their loved ones, knowing not whether they will return. It is affecting the homes of our people. Unitedly, as a Church, we must get on our knees and invoke the powers of the Almighty in behalf of those who will carry the burdens of this campaign.

Now, brothers and sisters, we must do our duty, whatever that duty might be. Peace may be denied for a season. Some of our liberties may be curtailed. We may be inconvenienced. We may even be called on to suffer in one way or another. But God our Eternal Father will watch over this nation and all of the civilized world who look to Him. He has declared, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord" (Ps. 33:12). Our safety lies in repentance. Our strength comes of obedience to the commandments of God.

Let us be prayerful. Let us pray for righteousness. Let us pray for the forces of good. Let us reach out to help men and women of goodwill, whatever their religious persuasion and wherever they live. Let us stand firm against evil, both at home and abroad. Let us live worthy of the blessings of heaven, reforming our lives where necessary and looking to Him, the Father of us all. He has said, "Be still, and know that I am God" (Ps. 46:10).

Are these perilous times? They are. But there is no need to fear. We can have peace in our hearts and peace in our homes. We can be an influence for good in this world, every one of us.

May the God of heaven, the Almighty, bless us, help us, as we walk our various ways in the uncertain days that lie ahead. May we look to Him with unfailing faith. May we worthily place our reliance on His Beloved Son who is our great Redeemer, whether it be in life or in death, is my prayer in His holy name, even the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

What do I get out of all of this? We need to elect leaders who will do what it right and then pray for them to make the right decisions. We also have the obligation to stand up against evil. I don't believe that war is always the right way to do this, but I argue that there have been times in the history of the world when it was required.

 

[Scott1]

How do you justify a war of aggression in the light of Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek? In light of Jesus telling us to bless and do not curse those who hate us? How do you justify the hate that is war?

Amen Pete.... some people toss aside Christ when it does not suit them... a war of aggression is the most glaring example of this.



The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.

All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• - the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• - all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• - there must be serious prospects of success;
• - the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.


The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know Scott,

That's why I didn't include ALL wars: I understand that the government has a right and even duty to protect. It just seems to me that a "pre-emptive strike" is the height of hypocrisy coming from a leader who claims to be a Christian. It just doesn't wash in my book.

 

[Scott1]

It just seems to me that a "pre-emptive strike" is the height of hypocrisy coming from a leader who claims to be a Christian. It just doesn't wash in my book.

Doesn't wash with me either.... but it comforts me to know that our President will stand before the Lord one day (dress for the heat!).

 

[glasgowchick]

Why does it seem that so many practicing Christians are War mongers? How do you justify a war of aggression in the light of Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek? In light of Jesus telling us to bless and do not curse those who hate us? How do you justify the hate that is war?

I know how you feel, I just hate war with a passion..Not only wars with bombs and guns, but any type of violence towards other human beings period.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Hi NetDoc,

I believe we can pull several meanings from the "turn the other cheek" teaching. First off, I believe it means that a motive from revenge is wrong. Secondly, I believe it means that a motive from pride is wrong (a slap in the face is a display of disgrace and shame, not necessarily an intent to cause injury).

I do not think that it means that violence is always wrong. A police officer who is forced to use violence to subdue a criminal is not in the wrong. In fact it requires the virtue of courage. I agree with the notion that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Having said that, I think there are plenty of wrong reasons for war (and most reasons for war have been wrong). I am always skeptical of the "ends justify the means" kind of mentality because we have limited control of the ends. God is the only one with that control and we should have faith in Him that He has the end in mind.

For me to believe a war is justified, there must be an imminent and undeniable threat. Anyone know of other verses that shed light on the morality of war?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. NIV

II Corinthians 10:1 By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. NIV

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. NIV

 

[Aqualung]

Why does it seem that so many practicing Christians are War mongers? How do you justify a war of aggression in the light of Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek? In light of Jesus telling us to bless and do not curse those who hate us? How do you justify the hate that is war?

Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. He didn't say, "If a man comes in and rapes your wife, let him rape your daughter as well. If that man then kills your son, make sure he knows he can kill you too. And furthermore, give him the combination to your lockbox, so he can have all your riches, while he's at it."

I think I am justified in defending myself, but that's it. I don't think the violence can go beyond self-defence. I also think that that is not a sin.

 

[glasgowchick]

I think I am justified in defending myself, but that's it. I don't think the violence can go beyond self-defence. I also think that that is not a sin.

That is a very good point, as much as I hate violence in any form, I am not going to sit back and allow someone to come in and beat up my kids, I don't think thats what God meant either by turning the other cheek. I wish we could all live in peace without wars and violence but In my opinion I think there is a difference between self defence and out right wars, viloence and crime...

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't think God is against us protecting our families. I don't think God wants us to defend ourselves though. We tend to be focused on the physical and the materialistic. He wants us to be able to transcend that focus and get to the spiritual side of things.

But the original question was about this "war of aggression": where our "born again" president anticipated an attack and attacked them instead, ONLY to find out that the WMDs are non-existent. Surely the nations have a right and compunction to wage war: that's all over the Bible and is even a prophecy for the "last times". But we are citizens of heaven FIRST: not the USA or Britain or where ever.

Ephesians 214 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. NIV

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why does it seem that so many practicing Christians are War mongers? How do you justify a war of aggression in the light of Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek? In light of Jesus telling us to bless and do not curse those who hate us? How do you justify the hate that is war?

NetDoc,

We must remember who thinks that Christians are war-mongers. Europeans, for example, intimately remember hundreds of years of religious wars instigated by both Catholic and Protestant heads of state. Remember that Jefferson was following the French when he wrote about the seperation of church and state. The French were coming off of years of religious wars and atrocities that devestated Europe that still affects their attitude towards religion and state relations today (eg, it is illegal for children to wear headscarfs or any religious symbols in school).

Then we have a long tradition of Christian patriots in America. Christians have fought in every American war and promoted fighting for the government as a Christian civic duty. If we criticize Christians for honoring their civic duty, it is a sense of duty that makes them a war-monger and not their faith, and all people who support war are war-mongers.

IMHO, the only legitimate reason for a democracy to go to war is to preserve freedom. If Christians are going to benefit from their citizenship (or any one else), they should fight to preserve their freedom by all means available to the government: diplomacy, economic sanctions, and war.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If Christians are going to benefit from their citizenship (or any one else), they should fight to preserve their freedom by all means available to the government: diplomacy, economic sanctions, and war.

So, do you think that Quakers are less patriotic, less Christian or just plain wrong?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So, do you think that Quakers are less patriotic, less Christian or just plain wrong?

I was thinking of Quakers as I was writing -they are the exception. I don't know if Quakers benefit from their American citizenship. A Quaker would have no problem (that is, they would not try and stop anyone by force) with any enemy of America killing their children and taking their farms. Beacuse of this, they would allow any enemy to invade and destory democracy and freedom, and they benefit from the American government almost by happenstance. They don't use any public resources like the court system, welfare, or any other public service.

The rest of us use public resources and would be greatly affected if America were destoryed. Since we use public resources we have the responsibility to protect them. So yes, the Quakers do not have a sense of civic duty or patriotism because they do not exist in the public realm like the average citizen.

EDIT: Gosh, I am thinking about the Amish, who are also pacifists. The test for true pacifism is if a person will not fight for the safety of their home and family. We don't want this type of person in the armed services for obvious reasons, and yes, if they benefit from freedom (as all of us do) and use public services, they should have a sense of civic duty to support the public machine by voting and supporting the democracy.

 

[Green Gaia]

They don't use any public resources like the court system, welfare, or any other public service.

So yes, the Quakers do not have a sense of civic duty or patriotism because they do not exist in the public realm like the average citizen.

I realize this is a Christian-only thread, but I feel I must point out that I think you have the Quakers and the Amish confused.