Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe perfection is required to enter into eternal life. For the Christian that perfection comes as a result of all sins forgiven.
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Christianity vs Islam
- Thread starter King Phenomenon
- Start date
Not based on what Jesus said. I like much of what Jesus said.
I find more of this divine command immorality in the Old Testament -- much of it committed by God Himself.
I think Islam accepts Jesus as a messiah. So they are not really lacking in this
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Islam accepts Jesus as a great Messenger of God but I don't think all Muslims accepts Jesus as the messiah prophesied in the OT.
Muslims are still waiting for that messiah to come. From what I know some Muslims believe that Jesus will return and be that messiah, but other Muslims believe that messiah will be someone else.
Sura (3:45) And when the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah gives you the glad tidings of a command from Him: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary.
The Ahmadis believe it's someone else, but there is no one that believes it will be someone else. There are people who believed x y z are return of Jesus or are the Mahdi, yet, no one from Muslims are awaiting a metaphorical return of Jesus. All Muslims believe in the literal return of Jesus. Even the few scholars that said Jesus died, said he would come back from the dead one day because of the mass traditions of him helping Imam Mahdi (a) and praying behind him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So let me get this clear. All Muslims believe that the same man, Jesus Christ, who lived and died 2000 years ago, will return from wherever you believe He now is (presumably heaven, or paradise, as Muslims refer to it).
Now I have another question. Do you believe that heaven or paradise is a physical place where physical bodies go to after they die?
If not, how could Jesus return from heaven or paradise in the same physical body that He had when he lived on earth before?
I have another question. If Jesus did return in the same physical body in what form would He return?
Finally, if Jesus returned in whatever form He returned in how would anyone know it was really Jesus?
Presumably, He would claim to be Jesus, but many men have come claiming to be Jesus, so how would we know that the real Jesus was actually Jesus?
Yes.
There are two words for heaven. Sky and garden. Heaven of this world is Mohammad (S) and his family (a). Isa (a) and his predecessors all the way to Musa (a) were once the "visited house" and the sky of the world. Idris (a) is risen to the sky. Elyas (a) was brought up to the sky then came back during Jesus (a) time, held the position of holy spirit and leader till Mohammad (s) on earth.
Imams (a) per hadiths in Al-Kafi go on ascending to the sky every Friday Night. But this sky is heavenly realm.
When you say physical, what do you mean? There is in reality no physical reality, everything is spiritual. Our organs and body parts are witnesses and noble creatures, or they would not be able to witness against us. They will talk per the Quran. So there in the spiritual world, how do body parts exist? Not in the same we are use to here.
By miracles and his message, but he want be the main person talking, it will be Imam Mahdi (a) doing the main leading and he will testify to him. Jesus (a) and Mahdi (a) ruling the world makes sense, because the sent ones do not differ about God's viewpoint and so it makes sense both will rule. However top chief is Imam Mahdi (a) and Isa (a) will be Wazir (second in command and full authority to represent Imam Mahdi (a)).
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Yes, the vast majority believe that..
..no, not physical .. but another "creation", where we won't have to use the toilet or feel sick
and what not.
It's easy for G-d .. and it is all about the concept of "time" .. what seems like thousands of years to us,
is not necessarily what others who are not in this universe would experience.
I understand that Jesus will return as a "Palestinian", as he was the last time he was here.
It is believed that he will come down to earth just like he left us.. i.e. from the sky
and many believe that he will return near/in Damascus.
There will be no doubt for believers of ALL "stripes" .. he will shine like the sun!
Thanks brother. I also want to add that the Quran is clear that Isa (a) is not dead and there will not a remain a book of the book but will believe in him before his death.Yes, the vast majority believe that..
..no, not physical .. but another "creation", where we won't have to use the toilet or feel sick
and what not.
It's easy for G-d .. and it is all about the concept of "time" .. what seems like thousands of years to us,
is not necessarily what others who are not in this universe would experience.
I understand that Jesus will return as a "Palestinian", as he was the last time he was here.
It is believed that he will come down to earth just like he left us.. i.e. from the sky
and many believe that he will return near/in Damascus.
There will be no doubt for believers of ALL "stripes" .. he will shine like the sun!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Anything can be believed but how is it possible for Jesus to return unless the Bible is in error?I understand that Jesus will return as a "Palestinian", as he was the last time he was here.
It is believed that he will come down to earth just like he left us.. i.e. from the sky
and many believe that he will return near/in Damascus.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
If the Bible is in error on these verses what reason would we have to believe other verses are not also in error?
Not many people recognized Jesus when He first appeared on earth. Why would His second coming be any different?There will be no doubt for believers of ALL "stripes" .. he will shine like the sun!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that body parts exist in the spiritual world. I believe we will have spiritual bodies, not physical bodies, so we will not need body parts, since body parts only exist for the functioning of the physical body (e.g., eating, drinking, defecating, having sex for procreation).
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
"John" is probably the worst Gospel to rely on .. the other three are known as the synoptics.
John's style is completely different to the others it is more flowery, and is abundant in additions
from the author(s) .. whoever they were.
PLENTY of people recognised him the first time .. he was known as "the King of the Jews" .. that's why he was plotted against, as he was seen as a threat to those with status.
I do not agree with the Orthodox Christian version. i.e. he said he was G-d, and so "the Jews" were angry
That's nonsense!
Cutting out the mistranslations, and it becomes the most beautiful out of them all even though they all have their proper place.
Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.
This thread, I will be matching phrases from the Gospels with Shiite hadiths, in the sense Imams (a) say about themselves same thing Jesus (a) is quoted in the Gospels to emphasize on himself. I will try to match up the phrases with hadiths and provide an explanation of what is meant from...
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have heard a lot of Christians say that, but then they cite John as the Gospel truth, and heavily rely upon it.
Lots of stuff goes straight out the door if the Gospel of John is not true.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You said: There will be no doubt for believers of ALL "stripes" .. he will shine like the sun!
But the fact is that not many people recognized Jesus for a long time after He walked the earth.
“Most scholars of Christian origins tend to exaggerate the size and importance of the early Christian church. This is understandable in the light of the discipline’s intense concentration on the New Testament texts. By confining ourselves in particular to the letters of Paul, the Gospels and Acts, it is all too easy to create a limited and false impression of the ancient world and the place of the Christians within it. Yet the reality is that for all of the first century the Christians were a tiny and insignificant socio-religious movement within the Graeco-Roman world (Hopkins 1998:195-196). Christianity did of course grow considerably in later centuries and it eventually became the religion of the Roman empire, but we should take care not to retroject its later size and importance into the initial decades of its existence.
“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.
These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
Within 350 years of Christ crucifixion Christianity had become the state sponsored religion of the largest empire on earth; but again, how much is that expansion was a free will choice people made to recognize Jesus and what He actually taught? Most of the Christians were accepting the state religion and what Paul taught about freedom from the Law and being saved by the blood of Jesus, which is not what Jesus taught.
I'm saying our organs and body parts right now are spiritual things but we don't perceive it in the simulation by God.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Mmm .. Jesus did not say that .. that would be the author(s);
That's OK .. Jesus probably said something much like that.
..but it needs to be taken in context. He was speaking to his disciples, or those around him at the time.
..so it applies to THEM i.e. following other than him, such as the Sadducees, will not succeed
Most Christians, however, take it to mean that there will be no more prophets/messiahs to come.
I don't think we can know that.
The same could be said about the followers of Moses or Muhammad. It starts off with an insignificant
number of people, and spreads to a significant amount.
Well, yes ..politics often spoils things for us all .. but G-d is able to guide whomsoever He wills.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you elaborate on that?
The assumption that "physical" makes a substance of anything, is an illusion. There's no such thing. According to the rules of the simulation, birds fly due to aerodynamics, their wings designed in a way, their body, etc, it allows them to fly.
Yet in reality, all there is things existing in God's vision, which is the true nature of existence. Qualia. For example, who you are. That is not physical. But it's not some sort of ultra physical thing either. It's vision of God where you exist. Not space. Not time though you experience things in time, it's not where you exist. You exist in God's vision.
So birds are not really being held by aerodynamics etc but it's as expressed in this verse:
أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى الطَّيْرِ فَوْقَهُمْ صَافَّاتٍ وَيَقْبِضْنَ ۚ مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلَّا الرَّحْمَٰنُ ۚ إِنَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ بَصِيرٌ | Have they not regarded the birds above them spreading and closing their wings? No one sustains them except the All-beneficent. Indeed, He watches all things. | Al-Mulk : 19
Like wise our body parts are not physical things since such things are impossible:
وَيَوْمَ يُحْشَرُ أَعْدَاءُ اللَّهِ إِلَى النَّارِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ | The day the enemies of Allah are marched out toward the Fire, while they are in check, | Fussilat : 19
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا مَا جَاءُوهَا شَهِدَ عَلَيْهِمْ سَمْعُهُمْ وَأَبْصَارُهُمْ وَجُلُودُهُمْ بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ | when they come to it, their hearing, their eyes and their skins will bear witness against them concerning what they used to do. | Fussilat : 20
وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدْتُمْ عَلَيْنَا ۖ قَالُوا أَنْطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنْطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ | They will say to their skins, ‘Why did you bear witness against us?’ They will say, ‘We were given speech by Allah, who gave speech to all things. He created you the first time, and you are being brought back to Him. | Fussilat : 21
وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَتِرُونَ أَنْ يَشْهَدَ عَلَيْكُمْ سَمْعُكُمْ وَلَا أَبْصَارُكُمْ وَلَا جُلُودُكُمْ وَلَٰكِنْ ظَنَنْتُمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَعْلَمُ كَثِيرًا مِمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ | You did not use to conceal yourselves [while perpetrating sinful acts] lest your hearing, your eyes, or your skins should bear witness against you, but you thought that Allah did not know much of what you did. | Fussilat : 22
وَذَٰلِكُمْ ظَنُّكُمُ الَّذِي ظَنَنْتُمْ بِرَبِّكُمْ أَرْدَاكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُمْ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ | That misjudgement, which you entertained about your Lord ruined you. So you became losers.’ | Fussilat : 23
The thing is about verse 41:21, is that the word is not just that everything is given speech, but speech of the rational type, of logical reasoning type. So it's not just sound or expression, it means everything is given rational speech.
Right now, we see things they appear physical, but in the spiritual world, everything glorifies God. For example, per Quran, mountains would glorify with Dawood (a):
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا ۖ يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ ۖ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ | Certainly We gave David from us grace: ‘O mountains and birds, chime in with him!’ And We made iron soft for him, | Saba : 10
And said:
سَبَّحَ لِلَّهِ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ | Whatever there is in the heavens and [whatever there is on] the earth glorifies Allah and He is the All-mighty, the All-wise. | Al-Hadid : 1
And said:
تُسَبِّحُ لَهُ السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ وَالْأَرْضُ وَمَنْ فِيهِنَّ ۚ وَإِنْ مِنْ شَيْءٍ إِلَّا يُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا تَفْقَهُونَ تَسْبِيحَهُمْ ۗ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا | The seven heavens glorify Him, and the earth [too], and whoever is in them. There is not a thing but celebrates His praise, but you do not understand their glorification. Indeed, He is all-forbearing, all-forgiving. | Al-Israa : 44
So these things in the world we are use to appear to be physical, but that is part of the deception, and life of this world is but means of deception.
In reality, physical things don't exist, and their nature is in God's vision. So when Isa (a) goes to the spiritual realm, and his body parts come with him, it doesn't mean that realm is physical. It takes a different nature. So when Mohammad (s) when to the heavenly realm, he went to a place Gabriel (a) could not go. So how is Mohammad's (s) body parts supposed to go? They can't if Gabriel (a) cannot and will burn, they will burn too.
Same with Isa (a) he is in a high place near God and his body parts are somewhere there below him and not with him in the spiritual realm, but when he comes back, he will make sure to get them and have same body part, just like Mohammad (s) did when he came back from his night journey from the sacred place of prostration to the furthest place of prostration.