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Featured Christianity: A Summary

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by usfan, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Unlike you I can support my claims with evidence. What parts did you not understand?
     
  2. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Redemption
    God made provision for the rebellion of man. Even though man's sins and corruption were contrary to the standard and nature of God, He provided a Way of escape from the coming reckoning. He became a man, Himself, and took the penalty for all of man's sins, if they will receive it. God appeared in the person of Jesus, and revealed the nature of God. He outlined the process of redemption, for those who would accept it. It is a spiritual transaction that has been likened to rebirth, or going from darkness to light. It is a quickening of the soul, where the lost human is awakened to the perception of spiritual reality. It usually involves acknowledging God and the atonement of Jesus, repentance for past wrongs, and the reception of God's Spirit into the redeemed soul. It is a very personal transaction, and transforms the life of the recipient.

    Citizenship
    The redeemed souls are now God's people. They have been likened to the children of God, His beloved bride, and a home for His dwelling. They are no longer of this fallen world, even though they still live in it. Their primary loyalties are to God and His government, not to any earthly institution of man.

    Deception
    This world is under the influence of a great deceiver. His goal is to kill and destroy, and to bring confusion to man so he cannot understand the redemption process, and be reconciled to God.

    Restoration
    The evils, suffering, and deceptions of this world are temporary, and will end when Jesus returns to make all things right. The universe will change, and God's kingdom and rule will be absolute and complete. Sin, death, and evil will no longer define the cosmos, but a restoration will take place, and make all things new.

    My goal here is to present a concise summary of the basic, historical Christian faith. I feel that footnotes and proof texts would detract from this goal, but i would be happy to elaborate on any point. My perspective here is one of a 20th century American, but i have tried to avoid temporal or regional biases in this summary. This is, however, my perspective of the basic consensus of Christian belief and teaching, over the last 2000 years.

    There are many more nuances and expanded points of science, empiricism, miracles, eternity, destiny, and origins that can be examined in greater detail, if there is interest. But i hope this provides a basic framework for better understanding of the Christian faith.[/QUOTE]
     
  3. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Christianity is the hardest Abrahamic religion to reject, because of its peaceful loving nature, in the main, but is has one major issue, the idea of Jesus as the Messiah
    This idea alienates Jews and Muslims and for that reason it is divisive and cannot be the true path to God
    Once Christianity moves on this idea, then I think it could do wonders to unite humanity.
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I have heard Muslims claim almost exactly the same thing. Pointing to the extremists in their religion does not help since the Christian religion has almost 1,700 years of oppression and extremism in their own history (until the Roman Empire recognized Christianity it did not have enough power to impose their beliefs upon others, otherwise I would have said almost 2,000 years).
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Your quotes seem to cobble together disparate comments from historic figures, but then those comments get twisted into Reformed Calvinistic nonsense whose flavor has little if anything to do with early Xy. Your statements appear to be “congruent” as they stand alone, but then they become “mush gospel,” like some cobbled-together Frankenstein’s monster and presented as Orthodoxy.

    There’s no need to refute what, apparently, everyone but you already knows. Not going to waste my time. But I will say that you don’t get to usurp orthodoxy, change it into Calvinism, and then claim that real orthodoxy is “inventing our own brand of Xy.”

    You want the “original message?” Here it is: “Turn your lives around; God’s Rule has come near.” That’s it. All the substitutionary atonement shinola piled on top of that is superfluous and not cogent to the original message.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Neither have you supported yours.
     
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  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You’re defining Calvinism.
     
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  8. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    There are 3 possibilities for this idea..
    1. Jesus WAS & IS, the Messiah.. the unique Son of God, the Saviour of mankind.
    2. He is/was a deceiver.. a false prophet like many before. The Messiah is yet to come, or there is no such person.
    3. He is/was a madman, who sincerely thought Himself God, and convinced others of the same.

    This is called the 'trilemma', in classical Christian scholarship. Those are the possibilities. IF.. He truly is/was 'The Messiah,' THEN... why or how could mere man 'change!' that idea for some speculative improvement of 'unity!'?
     
  9. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Conclude what you will. I have presented the evidence.
    I have, of course, you just reject it.
    So you believe and assert, without evidence.
     
  10. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    :facepalm:
    Fortunately, you have false narratives and anti-christian talking points readily at hand to smear the competition..
     
  11. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Jesus was a rabbi a very wise one and one that I love, a son of God as we all are . He gave you a real clue imo in how to find God ie in Matthew 18 2-4
    You have to forget your rational mind and become like a child, naive, wondering etc.
    Then start at Genesis 1 and you will find what I did ie Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World
    and I was raised an orthodox jew .....lol
     
  12. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    ..not according to Jesus Himself, and His disciples.

    He was the 'only begotten Son', of God.. God in the flesh, not merely a man.

    You can certainly disbelieve Him. But He never claimed to be just another Rabbi. So that makes Him either a liar, a madman, or the Saviour of humanity. You pick.
     
  13. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    More on the trilemma:

    Christ either [1] deceived mankind by conscious fraud, or [2] He was Himself deluded and self-deceived, or [3] He was Divine. There is no getting out of this trilemma. It is inexorable. ~ John Duncan (1796-1870)

    I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.. ~ C. S. Lewis, 1942
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Your post is the evidence. If you had posted, “Women need to be beat down and controlled,” that post would, on its own, be an example of misogyny. No further evidence needed. Someone would say, “That’s misogyny,” and you’d say, “you have no evidence to that effect.” It is what it is.

    Yes, you’ve gathered some quotes, but the people you quoted never put all the quotes together to create a “formula for the fall and subsequent salvation” in the way you present it.
    Jesus allowed himself to be called “Rabbi,” and he acted like a Rabbi. They treated him like a Rabbi.

    Yet, when someone called him “good teacher,” he said, “No one is good but God alone.”

    That’s not what the poster claimed, though. Read it again.
     
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  15. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Given the choice I personally value the account of eg God's Blessing and Covenant in the OT over the new testament because the former is without human self-interest.
    We cannot be sure as to whether all the accounts of Jesus saying , or having said he was "the only begotten son are actually true given the many revisions that happened eg Nicea etc
    My point is it cannot be proven nor disproven exactly who Jesus was and that doubt is enough for me to take his advice and start again at Gen 1 like I was a 10 year old.
    I cannot say what Jesus was, but he was and is not what he said he was to all of humanity and that concerned me.
    I almost became a jesuit at one time, but turned away when I realized that any Messiah must unite. So I went back to the beginning again with a child-like mind.
    Why don't you try it

    Lionel
     
  16. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    What authority does CS Lewis and John Duncan have on the subject any more than Rabbi Hillel or any of the other great rabbis. The point is that which divides cannot be from God
    We have had 2000 years of this division and divisiveness . Until Jesus returns we can not answer your trilemma with any degree of certainty. So we must start again at the beginning of the books and re-read.
     
  17. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    One concludes what their spirit/soul/mind compels them. We cannot do otherwise.
    None. I presented reasoning, not claims of authority. The trilemma is historical and a rational examination of the possibilities of the man, Jesus.
    How or why would He return, if he was just a man?
    Truth divides, as well. Lies and distortions cannot peacefully coexist with Truth.

    Matt10:34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
    “ ‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
    36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    There are more possibilities than that if you think about it. He may never have even have claimed to be the messiah. That could be a myth that grew about him after he was crucified.
     
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  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, you appear to be projecting again. Correcting your false views of Christianity is not "anti-christian". You appear to be rather uneducated about the early history of Christianity. One view won out over the rest. That does not mean that was the "right" view. And your beliefs have their own spin on them.

    Do you know how to support your claims? So far you have not been able to do so. I have not supported mine at all, but since you won't support yours my denials without any support are just as valid as anything that you have posted.
     
  20. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    That is just an extension of the source. Whether it was Jesus or His followers, this account of the man Jesus is the only comprehensive record of His words and deeds. As presented, He can only be:
    Liar
    Lunatic
    God

    Redefining or reinventing Him has no historical basis. You are still rejecting the historical Jesus.
     
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