Christian: What does the term "Catholic" denote?

[No*s]

Many Christians confess both the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed. Contained in these, though, is a confession of belief in "the Catholic Church."

I would argue that most people are rendering the creeds useless when they do this. Creeds are designed, by nature, to exclude things so that they can set up a limit on what is valid for the community. When I confess, "I believe in one God," I am disallowing polytheism. I cannot be a polytheist and confess this clause.

Further, the term was used in the Early Church in a manner that is meant to exclude people. When St. Ignatius uses it, he is juxtaposing the "Catholic Church" against groups that believed differently than he did. When St. Cyril of Carthage headed the Council of Carthage in the third century, he was addressing the question of whether the Church should accept baptism from schismatic groups. Repeatedly in the council's transcript, we read, "The Catholic Church" requires a valid baptism.

To my knowledge, though, it was never used in some inclusive fashion to include multiple groups with different beliefs. It was always used to exclude other groups. Further, it was used in creeds, which are exclusive by nature.

In short, it does denote a specific Church, and not some vague invisible body. If, however, one may define one part of the creed to mean the opposite of what was written, what point is the creed? It is designed to disallow certain beliefs and put a limit on what the group can say. If we can legitimately make it say anything, then there is no point.

If, however, we still believe it places limits on belief...then on what grounds can someone confess the creeds without at the same time becoming Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic? Both groups, at least, consider themselves the Catholic Church, and as such, can honestly confess the clause.

 

[Pah]

Catholic (small "c") denotes universalist and is generally only applied to Apostalic denominations

 

[No*s]

I made a startling omission. I didn't include the etymology.

The Greek word katholikos is a combination of two words, kata and olos. At one time olos was aspirated, and it begins with a vowle, so the a at the end of kata was dropped and the t is made an aspirated th. The aspirant on olos has long been lost now, though.

The word olos means "whole," and the word kata means "according to." The word literally means "according to the whole," and "universal" is only one possible meaning. It also covers "general," for instance, which is distinguished from "universal."

The term, therefore, refers to the faith of one group as generally found everywhere. A later Father would define Catholic belief as "that which is believed everywhere, always, and by everyone." That is Catholic, not just "universal" but "general." By applying it to the Church, it specifically excludes other groups as not a part of the Church.

 

[No*s]

Catholic (small "c") denotes universalist and is generally only applied to Apostalic denominations

However, can you find a single early Christian who used the term to encompass multiple groups, even apostolic ones? They always used it to exclude. I think that even the definition you've given is a modern gloss on the term so as to encompass more people than the sense allows.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know,

I guess that's why I never learned them or ascribed to them. The scripture is all I need.

 

[No*s]

You know,

I guess that's why I never learned them or ascribed to them. The scripture is all I need.

Well you know the two things I tend to say. It is a Catholic Bible after all, and Sola Scriptura isn't one of it's creeds .

 

[Scuba Pete]

As I pointed out before... I don't read the word "Catholic" anywhere in the Old or New Testaments. So I guess anyone can read it!

BTW, "Sola Scripture" is man's term... I prefer to stick to the "if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" creed.

 

[No*s]

BTW, "Sola Scripture" is man's term... I prefer to stick to the "if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" creed.

Wonderful! The Church is always open to new converts to the Gospel .

 

[SK2005]

The word catholic simply means universal.

 

[No*s]

It also means "general." We call the "General Epistles" the "Catholic Epistles" in that sense. "Catholic" also comes with the shades of meaning I have described which make it impossible to use in the creeds unless we mean "Catholic."

It does mean "universal," but that's not all it means .

 

[Joannicius]

Good posts No*s

To understand Catholic we must understand what the Church Fathers were saying when they wrote the Creed AND if we accept the Scriptures, denying those who gave them to us, who gave us the Creed BEFORE they canonized the scriptures, we deceive ourselves. By the way for the sola scriptura ones out there, what are we going to do with the fact that the ones who gave us the scripture Worshipped and Believed as the Orthodox do today!!!!!!!……Historic Fact

Even up until many years after Martin Luther died, the Christian Community as a whole:

• Worshipped Liturgically
• Revered icons and they were in all the churches.
• Recognized Mary for who she is in the eternal scheme.
• Had vestments. Etc. etc. etc.

[font=&quot]See what I’m getting at? The Christian Community has forgotten Her roots. And in pride discards what the Holy Spirit has given us in His love and beauty to minimalize the Christian Life and Worship.[/font]

 

[No*s]

Good posts No*s

To understand Catholic we must understand what the Church Fathers were saying when they wrote the Creed AND if we accept the Scriptures, denying those who gave them to us, who gave us the Creed BEFORE they canonized the scriptures, we deceive ourselves. By the way for the sola scriptura ones out there, what are we going to do with the fact that the ones who gave us the scripture Worshipped and Believed as the Orthodox do today!!!!!!!……Historic Fact

Even up until many years after Martin Luther died, the Christian Community as a whole:

• Worshipped Liturgically
• Revered icons and they were in all the churches.
• Recognized Mary for who she is in the eternal scheme.
• Had vestments. Etc. etc. etc.

[font=&quot]See what I’m getting at? The Christian Community has forgotten Her roots. And in pride discards what the Holy Spirit has given us in His love and beauty to minimalize the Christian Life and Worship.[/font]

Thanks Joannicus .

That's an excellent summary of my points overall, and on Catholic in particular. It is precisely the reasoning you outlined above that caused me to abandon Sola Scriptura. That, in turn, caused lots of ramifications for me (my search for Orthodoxy was primarily logical and doctrinal at the start...I needed a consistent faith). Of course, I tried to remain a Baptist while repudiating the belief for a long time.

 

[athanasius]

the Word Catholic means "Universal or of the Whole". It is attached to the meaning in (Matt 28:28) to go spread the gospel to "all" nations. So it would be a universal Church and universal faith. This universal faith of the Catholic Church was founded historically by Jesus and built on the rock of Peter(Matt 16:13-19) who Jesus made his Prime minister of the new davidic kingdom. Although all the apostles and thier succesors were given special authority(Matt 18:15-20), Peter was given the special office of Prime minister over them and his role is clearly the leader(Jn 21:15-17, Luke 22:31-32, Matt 16:13-19, Acts 15:6-9) This office and its infallible authority was historically continued by Peters successors as the unanimous consent of the fathers of the church show and is still around today visible in Pope Benendict the 16th. The church fathers such as St Ignatius of Antioch recognized this. Ignatius was a disiple of the Apostle St John himself. And he refers to both the Church being Catholic, and the authority of the successor of Peter in Rome as being Chief or presidential to the Christian faith. A good source to go to to see this would be the Merruim websters encyclopedia, or the Encyclopedia of Catholic history put out by Our Sunday Visitor. A great book to purchase to show the historical(fathers) and biblical evidience for this is called "Jesus, Peter, and the Keys" by Butler and deacon Hess. I hope that helps

 

[James the Persian]

the Word Catholic means "Universal or of the Whole". It is attached to the meaning in (Matt 28:28) to go spread the gospel to "all" nations. So it would be a universal Church and universal faith. This universal faith of the Catholic Church was founded historically by Jesus and built on the rock of Peter(Matt 16:13-19) who Jesus made his Prime minister of the new davidic kingdom. Although all the apostles and thier succesors were given special authority(Matt 18:15-20), Peter was given the special office of Prime minister over them and his role is clearly the leader(Jn 21:15-17, Luke 22:31-32, Matt 16:13-19, Acts 15:6-9) This office and its infallible authority was historically continued by Peters successors as the unanimous consent of the fathers of the church show and is still around today visible in Pope Benendict the 16th. The church fathers such as St Ignatius of Antioch recognized this. Ignatius was a disiple of the Apostle St John himself. And he refers to both the Church being Catholic, and the authority of the successor of Peter in Rome as being Chief or presidential to the Christian faith. A good source to go to to see this would be the Merruim websters encyclopedia, or the Encyclopedia of Catholic history put out by Our Sunday Visitor. A great book to purchase to show the historical(fathers) and biblical evidience for this is called "Jesus, Peter, and the Keys" by Butler and deacon Hess. I hope that helps

Care to provide some evidence for St. Ignatius believing the bishop of Rome to have supreme authority? I've never seen such a thing and I most certainly do read the Fathers. The word Catholic is not at all tied up with the idea of the Papacy. Even western saints such as St. Vincent of Lerins make no mention of the Papacy when describing what it means for the faith to be Catholic. It sems to me that you need to do further research into our common, pre-Schism history before pontificating on what Catholic means. I'm pretty certain that I would have little difficulty in showing from the Fathers that your view is not theirs.

James

 

[anders]

The Swedish word for the Nicene "catholic" is not used in any other circumstances, but is a variation of our normal word for 'general, common', allmän. Dictionaries give allmännelig = "catholic, general." It would be interesting to look at translations from more languages.

 

[James the Persian]

The Swedish word for the Nicene "catholic" is not used in any other circumstances, but is a variation of our normal word for 'general, common', allmän. Dictionaries give allmännelig = "catholic, general." It would be interesting to look at translations from more languages.

Romanian has two words. One, catolic, only describes the Roman Catholic Church/faith. This word is not used in the Creed or any theological treatises. The other word (that is used in the Creed) is sobornicesc. This is one of the reasonably small numbers of Slavonic derived words in Romanian. The root is soborny, or something rather like conciliar. This preserves the meaning of the faith 'according to the whole' that often seems lost on English speakers who use the word as though it were a synonym for universal and is the original translation of catholic used by Sts. Cyril and Methodius when evangelising the Slavs (their first endeavour was to translate various texts including Scripture from Greek into Slavonic). It would seem that the Swedish, Slavonic and Romanian useage of the term all agree.

James

 

[athanasius]

Ok this is explanation of the meaning of Catholic from Catholic answers website: www.catholic.com I will then also provide evidence for Ignatius belief in the Papacy and Romes Authority. enjoy!

The Greek roots of the term "Catholic" mean "according to (kata-) the whole (holos)," or more colloquially, "universal." At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term "Catholic" in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.

The term "Catholic" is in the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, and many Protestants, claiming the term for themselves, give it a meaning that is unsupported historically, ignoring the term’s use at the time the creeds were written.

Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: "As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was 'universal' or 'general.' . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).

Thus people who recite the creeds mentally inserting another meaning for "Catholic" are reinterpreting them according to a modern preference, much as a liberal biblical scholar does with Scripture texts offensive to contemporary sensibilities.

Here is the proof that Ignatius adhered to Romes authority and Peters successors;

Ignatius of Antioch


"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

He clearly asserts Rome to be in charge and to hold the “Presidency” of Christians a early term for the papacy. The eastern churches all once belonged to this Catholic church until schism happened. The east really did recognize the authority of the bishop of Rome. Read the tome of St Leo, it clearly shows this. Also Irenaeus clearly shows that the Bishops of Rome and the roman church had a primacy due to its apostolic succession from the new Davidic Prime minister Peter
I would love to discuss the fathers of the church with this issue. Its a no brainer.

 

[Katzpur]

When I use the word "Catholic," I am always referring to "Roman Catholic," even though I realize that's a misnomer. I do understand the difference between "Catholic" with an upper-case 'C' and "catholic" with a lower-case 'c'. I also recognize that members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches are also "Catholic" with an upper-case 'C'. What I don't know is the correct usage when describing a person who is a member of one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

In other words, a member of the Roman Catholic Church generally calls himself a "Catholic" or a "Roman Catholic." What does a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church call himself? Would "an Orthodox Catholic" be the preferred term, or what?

 

[Quiddity]

James and Athanasius,
As tempting as it may be to discuss matters that seperate us, I ask that we keep this within the OP (what the word "catholic" means).

If you both wish to discuss it further please continue it on either of these threads:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=547336#post547336

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29237

Or you can start your own.

Thanks,
~Victor

 

[athanasius]

THANKS VICTOR,

AS I HAVE SHOWN THE WORD MEANS "UNIVERSAL OR OF THE WHOLE". he Greek roots of the term "Catholic" mean "according to (kata-) the whole (holos)," or more colloquially, "universal." At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term "Catholic" in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others. AND REFERS TO THE CHURCH CHRIST ESTABLISHED ON THE ROCK OF PETER(MATT 16:13-19).