Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to this site, and I'd like to start off with a question I have had for a very long time. In regards to predestination, Why did God (if He really exists) create us in the first place? For sure, He had the ability to see our destinations - and the flaw Adam and Even would eventually make. Even further, He would have seen that more people ending up at hell than receiving everlasting life. If then, why did He decide to create us? He did want to create sentient beings that would be make decisions on their own - creatures that can actually decide to love God and follow his ways, unlike a robot for example. Eventually, all the good people will be resurrected, and they will be in a spiritually flawless state once they enter heaven. In the presence of God, no sin can exist, and ipsofactor everyone receiving resurrection will be what we call perfects. If this was the state God wanted us to be in, why couldn't He create us in this form in the first place? After all, if that is to be the state we are to be, then why does He have make mankind go all through this with more people eventually ending up in hell? Any responses would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
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Christian: God, Predestination, and Purpose
- Thread starter kimfuge
- Start date
Hello, Kimfuge,kimfuge said:
Any responses appreciated ?
- well then I can tell you what I think, but I am not sure it will address any of the questions to which you would like to hear. most coincidentally, I have just finished answering someone else's question on virtually the same topic..........
I said to him Quote............" If there is one thing that I have learned about the way in which we think about God, on this forum, it is:- God may have plans, but they are incomprehensible to us - for us to speculate on them has no validity, and is a 'waste' of time.
The Buddhist philosophy comes into play here, as well demonstrated by what I always see as the dictate of - the past is done - let go of it. The future is unknown, so don't bother to speculate; the present, the 'NOW' is the only bit of time which you can control, live it to the full, and try to be as good a person as you can be.
"...................Looking at that answer, I think it equally apt to a response to your question.
I don't know, I don't know anyone who does, and I think it far more important to focus on matters that we can address, as humans - to make the world a more loving, less troublesome place in which to live, during our limited life spans.
The rest is up to God.
I agree with you. We need to be more focused on the present. We certainly do have to question the how we are going to make the things around us better. But if we are not to know of why we were created in the first place, then do our actions hold any purpose? I too see my question is very hard to answer - perhaps the answer is in another dimension we possibly cannot fathom. But, as a Christian (assuming you are one), how would you answer these questions when an agnostic approches you? I appreciate your answer though - thanks!
pik48
New Member
Adam and Eve were perfect, created by God, but, they werent righteous. Hopefully thats the right word, righteous. In order to be righteous they had to be tested. You are given free choice. That entails love from your creator. As you basically answered the first part of your question. They were tested and failed and fell into sin, missing the mark if you will. Broke a commandment, a law. Think about this, if God had not done anything with man, just created him and left him alone, even perfect and no tests. How do you think man would think of His creator? Would he love Him? True love? God had done nothing but create him. It would seem that we would think that He would just be the God out there, unknowable. Yes, He made us, so what? But true love entails a little more then that. I find that i would follow a loving God, one that gave of Himself for me. Man made a choice, and failed. God now sets in motion, from before the beginning of the universe, his plan for mankind. It is Jesus the Christ. The entire Bible is about the Christ. A loving God indeed. Yet also a righteous God who abhors sin. We are given free choice. Jesus says he is the way the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me. No shortcuts. Your choice to follow a loving God or not. Hell is your choice, not Gods. Hell was made for? Fallen angels, not mankind. What is hell? Lake of fire.... what was the first judgment given to mankind in the Old Testament? Flood. The second will be? Fire. Your choice. Darkness and gnashing of teeth. Be your own 'god' then, as you have so chosen. Create your own light. You cant. Darkness. The knowledge that you have blown it. Given many chances. In darkness, the fear of something brushing against you. Gnashing of teeth.<> Love is first mentioned in Genesis with Abraham and Isaac. About sacrifice. It is mentioned for the first time in the first three gospels at Jesus baptism. And then in the gospel of John '...for God so 'Loved the world' that He gave His only begotten Son...." It is about sacrifice. That is the God that i love and find at times so hard to follow. For the god of this world is hard at work to keep 'us' away from His love. Pik
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi there, Kimfuge!kimfuge said:
Well, I'll start out by saying that I absolutely, positively, definitely don't believe in predestination. So maybe my input won't be of much value to you. If it doesn't, you might as well stop reading right now. (I'll never know the difference.)
I believe that God created us in the first place out of love. I don't see His reasons as being anything but charitable. I don't think He created us in order to be able to have millions of us eternally singing praises to Him, and I don't think He created us as His playthings. I believe He created us to have the potential to progress eternally, to have, as it were, absolutely limitless potential for growth.
I see His omniscience in a little different light than you evidently do. To me, it's not a matter of Him knowing every tiny detail of our lives. I think it's more that He knows each of us perfectly and can therefore predict what kinds of choices we would make under certain circumstances. But I don't see Him as mapping out our lives to the extent some people do. Yes, there are definitely times when He intervenes and provides challenges and opportunities that will test us and help us to grow. But I see absolutely nothing as "cast in concrete."
Secondly, I don't believe that the majority will end up in Hell. Once again, we are His children, His own offspring. What kind of a loving Father would create billions of children, only to see the majority end up as some kind of eternal firewood? I do believe in Hell, but you would be surprised at how few people I think will end up spending eternity there.
Further, I don't believe that only the "good" will be resurrected. Resurrection is nothing more than the reuniting of body and spirit. I believe all who have ever lived will be resurrected. But it is in the way in which we will spend eternity that the righteous will be blessed in a way the wicked will not.
Jesus commanded us to "be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." Obviously, we can't do that -- at least not in this life. But I believe the potential exists for us to do that in the eternities to come. You started out by talking about Adam and Eve. Everybody remembers how the serpent tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit by promising her that by doing so she would be "as the gods, knowing good and evil." But I seldom hear people comment on what God said after both Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." God himself said it: Part of what makes God what He is is the ability to have a perfect understanding of the difference between good and evil. The only way it would have been possible for Adam and Eve (or any of us, for example) to become "perfect, as our Father in Heaven is perfect," was for them to experience mortality, to learn firsthand how to make correct choices. That's why, in my opinion, He created us as fallible mortals with the potential to become as He is, rather than having created us in a perfect state to begin with.
Aqualung
Tasty
I'm going to take this without reading any other posts, so sorry if I repeat what anybody else was saying.
I hope that helps. That's rather cursory, so if there is something you're not understanding, or something that you would like scripture to support, just say so, and I'll get to it shortly.
He created us for one simple reason - so we could become like him. That is the essentially the only reason God created us. How do I know we can become like him? Such verses such as Psamls 82:6 which states "ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High," Matt 5:48, "be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father," and John 10:30 "it is written in your law ... Ye are gods," among others. We have potential to become like him. It would be silly for him to have created us if we were eternally destined to be inferior, or to not progress. Our purpose here is progression.kimfuge said:
He certainly did, and he factored that into his plan. God wanted Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit and to "become as one of us." (gen 3:22) It was necessary for Adam and Even to eat of the forbidden fruit for them to begin their progression to become like God, which is his final plan for us. however, another thing that was necessary for our progression was free-will; that it, the ability to choose. God had to allow them to choose to partake of the fruit, because it woudn't work if he made them. This opened us up to temptation by the devil, weaknesses, and hardships, all of which are also necessary for progression. Eating of the forbidden fruit also opened us to a whole 'nother world of emotions and a new depth. Without knowing sorrow, how can we truely know joy? Without knowing pain, how can truely appreciate the good things in our lives? This depth of understanding is also necessary for our progression.kimfuge said:
To a degree, you are right. He knew there would be people who chose not to follow God, and that they would be lost. But, this way is the best way, in fact, the only way, that we could become like him. With free will, there is also the chance that it will be abused. That's just the way it goes. But remember this. There won't be more people ending up in hell. The only people who end up in hell for all of eternity are those with the mark of the devil on their forhead; that is, those who knowingly choose to reject God's will, and instead knowing do the will of the devil. (matt 12:31 "blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven." Those are the only ones who will suffer eternal damnation, and rightfully so! If someone is going to willfully and knowingly disobey god, they need to suffer the consequences. Others, however, won't suffer for eternity, and the vast majority of people will end up in heaven exalted to a degree fitting of their faithfulness to the word of God (either in this life, or, if unlucky enough to have been born in an area whre they could not hear the gospel, in the next life.) Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88 shows that the ones who are bad people, though just because they don't know any better, not because they know better but they choose not to obey, are thrust into hell for the length of Jesus' millenial reign, and then are resurected in to the tellestial glory. The vast majority of people will be resurected into some glory in heaven.kinfuge said:
Because, simply put, he can't. In the begining, when we were still spirits residing with god, ther also wasn't sin. But we were just so un progressed, and God, as a loving father, doesn't like to see us like that. It's like if you got stuck with a perpetual two year old. You would want your kid to grow up someday, and perhaps become like you. But in order to that, you have to let him venture out into the world, make his own choices, and stuff like that. Many people think that God has the power to do whatever he wants, and to an extent, that is true. But he definitely has rules, too. He can't create us like him. We have to work our way up there, like he did.kimfuge said:
I hope that helps. That's rather cursory, so if there is something you're not understanding, or something that you would like scripture to support, just say so, and I'll get to it shortly.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Evil? Moi? You did a great job. Seriously! You are catching on to this new faith too darned fast! :bounceAqualung said:Katzpur! You evil little cat! You beat me to it. Oh, well, I guess you probably did a better job of it, and I was going to ask you to look at my post anyway.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Doesn't that make God sound a bit like a selfish child? I see God as infinitely less needy than that. Wouldn't a perfect being have some higher purpose than you've described?oneWord said:There are no 'good' people - no-one, not one. We are created for His good pleasure, to enjoy Him and worship Him forever. Essentially, although somewhat shocking (everyday), it's not about 'us' although it clearly involves us!