Can God create a God more powerful than itself?

[Pah]

There is no answer.... it is an exercise for debate...

Questions like this began in the Renaissance Era "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" was a popular question... but no one really was asking questions like this to get a definitive answer.

Scott

Does that mean my answer to the angel question is obsolete, old fashioned?

The answer is none - they are all Baptists

 

[Scott1]

Hehe.... good one pah!

 

[Christopher Krajewski]

God either could make himself greater or make himself smaller. Just like MAN can as well. However, Man compares in the essential identity of physical substrate :jiggy: to ever higher derived possibilities. So there is an identity in God above all physical creating continued identity or at being the identity at eternity.

I say to the question asked I don't know. it's beyond the practical to know. But since man has killed God in science and technology; wouldn't it be practical for the creating of greater God's by the ruling entity of all, be also possible for God to kill himself.:sarcastic

Once that would happen, what happens to man's propencity to know the world of creation? and that besides practical is practically of the very concern of discovering the world progressively. Heck, we don't CARE for the common Faith in God as we used to.

 

[jewscout]

I'm sorry it is impossible to know Gods character. The answer, as I've heard it, is God can not do anything illogical (like sqaure a circle - make a 4 sided triangle). But then again, isn't logic what man does?

well in my opinion He can make a square circle, He can make the sky polka dot...whats not illogical about making one of the most illogical beings, man, into the dominant species on the planet?
I take the idea of G-d's inability to become finite from one of the 13 principles of Jewish Faith...He is infinite, there is and can be none like Him

i'm not sure if man's the perfect example of what is logical...we tend to be pretty irrationaly beings...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm sorry it is impossible to know Gods character. The answer, as I've heard it, is God can not do anything illogical (like sqaure a circle - make a 4 sided triangle). But then again, isn't logic what man does?

Yes, it is impossible to discover God's character through science and philosophy. However, Jews and Christians confess that God revealed Himself through the prophets. Thus, we know the God that had been revealed to us, and He is infinate in power. He has also revealed that "his ways are not our ways." He acts according to his purposes, which sometimes can defy human logic.

 

[MatCauthorn]

well in my opinion He can make a square circle, He can make the sky polka dot...

These are not really in the same category, and it impacts on the answer that I have heard to this question.

God is all-powerful, and therefore God can do anything that can be done. God can lift Mount Everest, God can make matter appear and disappear, and God can get front-row tickets to "Spamalot" on opening night. God can do anything that can be done.

However, God cannot do things which are logically impossible, such as create a five-sided triangle. It is in the nature of a triangle that it has three sides and three angles which add up to 180 degrees - God cannot change that. God can change what we mean by the word "triangle" such that it means "a five sided figure," but that's not the same thing as creating a logically impossible figure. This doesn't mean that God's powers are limited, though, because it is impossible for such a figure to exist. It is something which cannot be done, which means that God can't do it either.

It's the same issue with questions like, "Can God create a rock so heavy God can't lift it?" The answer is no, but that doesn't mean that God is not omnipotent. God can create any rock, and God can lift any rock that God creates. It would not be possible for God to limit God's own powers because that would create a logical fallacy, since it would mean God is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being's powers can never be limited.

In casual conversation when we say that "God can do the impossible," what we usually mean is that, "God can violate physical laws through miracles, and cause things to happen that human beings could never cause to happen." God cannot do things which are actually impossible, though, like create impossible figures or limit the power of an omnipotent being.

Does that make any sense?

-- Mat

 

[angellous_evangellous]

However, God cannot do things which are logically impossible, such as create a five-sided triangle.

I don't know if making a five-sided triangle is logically impossible. It is an act which strains definition. God also has the supreme authority to name things and his creations purpose. Therefore, he can make a five sided triangle, if he choses to redefine or give new characteristics to what constitutes a triangle. It's definition here, not logic - and it is analogous to God making a more powerful God. God defines Himself, and his power is infinate...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I still want to know if he can make something so heavy that he cannot lift it.

I asked that in sunday school, was promptly asked to leave, and still have not found anyone willing to give me an answer.

I will answer it similarly to how I answer the question above:

God is all-powerful
God is all-knowing

God is more powerful than anything that he knows: there is nothing for him to know, discover, or create that is more powerful that He, or that would limit his power.

Also, God is spirit so He doesn't need to lift anything.

 

[Fluffy]

Well that is the strongest argument I have ever seen against an omnipotent god.

If god can do EVERYTHING, then he should be able to create a being that can do more things than he can. If he can't then he can't do everything. If he can then he can't do everything because the being he creates is able to do something which he cannot.

Oooooo its a tricky one. Maybe omnipotence is not a concept which we can fully understand as a human? Seems like a bit of a cop out answer though. As does "Well isn't this a silly question".

 

[MatCauthorn]

However, God cannot do things which are logically impossible, such as create a five-sided triangle.

I don't know if making a five-sided triangle is logically impossible. It is an act which strains definition. God also has the supreme authority to name things and his creations purpose. Therefore, he can make a five sided triangle, if he choses to redefine or give new characteristics to what constitutes a triangle. It's definition here, not logic - and it is analogous to God making a more powerful God. God defines Himself, and his power is infinate...

This is why I made a distinction between the linguistic concept of a triangle and the actual figure. In the concept of God as an omnipotent being, it is certainly possible for God to change the way we think of three-sided figures, or five-sided figures, or anything like that. He could cause us to start thinking of three-sided figures as "zubedges" and five-sided figures as "triangles," but that's not the point.

Let's make it even simpler. Can God create a three-sided figure with five sides? Of course not - it's a matter of pure definition. A three-sided figure has only three sides, therefore nobody, not even an all-powerful being, can create a figure with the property of having only three sides which also has the property of having only five sides. However, because God cannot do that does not mean that God is not omnipotent, because creating logically contradictory situations is not something which can be done.

Does that make sense? This form of the argument was explained to me by a religious studies professor, so it might not be the most well-known incarnation, but it (sort of) makes sense to me.

-- Mat

 

[Pah]

...
Let's make it even simpler. Can God create a three-sided figure with five sides? Of course not - it's a matter of pure definition. A three-sided figure has only three sides, therefore nobody, not even an all-powerful being, can create a figure with the property of having only three sides which also has the property of having only five sides. However, because God cannot do that does not mean that God is not omnipotent, because creating logically contradictory situations is not something which can be done.
-- Mat

It all depends on perspective. Consider a corner of the frame of a house. It has an upright an two bases - it is braced by two supports at 45 degree angles. Having that in mind, remove from the thought, the upright. When the eye is at the level of the two bases, a rotation will show at two points, a three-sided triangle and a four-side figure at the others. It would be easy to imagine a five-sided figure looking like a triangle using that example. In fact the 2 dimensional triangle is actually in a third dimension with four (or five) sides.

What this has to do with God's capabilities makes it an open question. We are limited to seeing a 3 dimensional world but that may not be the reality.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This is why I made a distinction between the linguistic concept of a triangle and the actual figure. In the concept of God as an omnipotent being, it is certainly possible for God to change the way we think of three-sided figures, or five-sided figures, or anything like that. He could cause us to start thinking of three-sided figures as "zubedges" and five-sided figures as "triangles," but that's not the point.

Let's make it even simpler. Can God create a three-sided figure with five sides? Of course not - it's a matter of pure definition. A three-sided figure has only three sides, therefore nobody, not even an all-powerful being, can create a figure with the property of having only three sides which also has the property of having only five sides. However, because God cannot do that does not mean that God is not omnipotent, because creating logically contradictory situations is not something which can be done.

Does that make sense? This form of the argument was explained to me by a religious studies professor, so it might not be the most well-known incarnation, but it (sort of) makes sense to me.

-- Mat

I get your point. I have heard the same argument in the classroom made by theologians. It does make sense, but God is the Creator and is not subject to anything but Himself, not even logic. He can reveal Himself as logical and appeal to rationale, but in His revelation, He defies logic, if we are to accept the God of Christianity as our subject.

 

[michel]

I wanted to say 'no' straight off; surely God is 'the very top' of everything anyway - surely there can be nothing greater than he.

 

[MatCauthorn]

When the eye is at the level of the two bases, a rotation will show at two points, a three-sided triangle and a four-side figure at the others. It would be easy to imagine a five-sided figure looking like a triangle using that example. In fact the 2 dimensional triangle is actually in a third dimension with four (or five) sides.

What this has to do with God's capabilities makes it an open question. We are limited to seeing a 3 dimensional world but that may not be the reality.

Err... I am having a great deal of difficulty picturing this in my mind. I think I understand what you're saying, but the example is not particularly clear to me. Then again, the same thing happens to me when I try to think of four mutually perpendicular lines... :areyoucra

God is the Creator and is not subject to anything but Himself, not even logic. He can reveal Himself as logical and appeal to rationale, but in His revelation, He defies logic, if we are to accept the God of Christianity as our subject.

I understand the practical need for this belief (in the sense that it is necessary to be able to say "God can do anything") but it doesn't really make sense to me that God would be able to defy logic and create impossible figures. Certainly there would be no problem with God's creating something that had never existed before - say, a unicorn, or a sphinx - but to create something logically contradictory simply isn't possible, the same way that it isn't possible to create a God more powerful than God. Is there a Biblical basis to the claim that God is free from the constraints of logic (other than the usual claims of God being all-powerful, or God being able to do all things)? [I'm not flaming here - I am wondering if there is anything which is normally cited in this sort of argument.]

-- Mat

 

[michel]

Err... I am having a great deal of difficulty picturing this in my mind. I think I understand what you're saying, but the example is not particularly clear to me. Then again, the same thing happens to me when I try to think of four mutually perpendicular lines... :areyoucra

I understand the practical need for this belief (in the sense that it is necessary to be able to say "God can do anything") but it doesn't really make sense to me that God would be able to defy logic and create impossible figures. Certainly there would be no problem with God's creating something that had never existed before - say, a unicorn, or a sphinx - but to create something logically contradictory simply isn't possible, the same way that it isn't possible to create a God more powerful than God. Is there a Biblical basis to the claim that God is free from the constraints of logic (other than the usual claims of God being all-powerful, or God being able to do all things)? [I'm not flaming here - I am wondering if there is anything which is normally cited in this sort of argument.]

-- Mat

Hi Mat,
I think you are maybe restricting your ideas as to what you know about (Which is obvious really, come to think of it) - I think maybe Pah is trying to tell you that our understanding of what is around us may not actually be representative of what is actually there - if that makes any sense.

Example:- we know of three dimensions, but there might for all we know, be loads more. To an insect Life must have a very different perspective from ours - the whole thing is based on frames of references.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Err... I am having a great deal of difficulty picturing this in my mind. I think I understand what you're saying, but the example is not particularly clear to me. Then again, the same thing happens to me when I try to think of four mutually perpendicular lines... :areyoucra

I understand the practical need for this belief (in the sense that it is necessary to be able to say "God can do anything") but it doesn't really make sense to me that God would be able to defy logic and create impossible figures. Certainly there would be no problem with God's creating something that had never existed before - say, a unicorn, or a sphinx - but to create something logically contradictory simply isn't possible, the same way that it isn't possible to create a God more powerful than God. Is there a Biblical basis to the claim that God is free from the constraints of logic (other than the usual claims of God being all-powerful, or God being able to do all things)? [I'm not flaming here - I am wondering if there is anything which is normally cited in this sort of argument.]

-- Mat

Isaiah 55.8

8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD

The context of Isaiah 55, from a Christian POV, is the plan of God's salvation, which God shows to defy human logic, which is apexed by Is. 55.8 above.

The apostle Paul teaches that God's plan appears to be foolish, defying human logic in 1 Cor 1.18 to the end of the chapter:

18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written,
"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

23but we preach Christ crucified,to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

From the Christian perspective, God must reveal Himself. We cannot reach him through philosophy or logic, and therefore, we cannot limit him through the same. Fortunately, God appeals to human logic by means of His revelation. However, even in His revelation, one cannot rely on wisdom alone, but depend on the Spirit to continue revealing God. Thus, biblical interpretation is both an art and a science, using both the heart and the mind.

 

[iaminterface]

Therefore, he can make a five sided triangle, if he choses to redefine or give new characteristics to what constitutes a triangle.

Awesome, so right now im choosing to believe that this five sided figure i've drawn is a triangle. Sweet. Do i get my own religion now?

Also, i was thinking. Aren't humans possible of almost anything, given enough time and effort?

 

[MatCauthorn]

Example:- we know of three dimensions, but there might for all we know, be loads more. To an insect Life must have a very different perspective from ours - the whole thing is based on frames of references.

True. I recall reading a mind-bending essay about how things in a three-dimensional world would appear to a two-dimensional creature. Making the leap from that to the thoughts of what a fourth- or fifth-dimensional object would appear to us three-dimensional creatures is what gives me headaches. It worries me slightly that what we perceive may not be the actual reality, but since I can't do anything about it, I will try not to concern myself with the possibility.

Thanks for the replies on this, everyone.

-- Mat

 

[Pah]

Awesome, so right now im choosing to believe that this five sided figure i've drawn is a triangle. Sweet. Do i get my own religion now?

Also, i was thinking. Aren't humans possible of almost anything, given enough time and effort?

You can only draw in 2 dimensions - you can't draw a five sided triangle. You have to construct the 4 or 5 sided triangle in 3 dimensions.