Can Atheists and Theists ever acknowledge each other.

[Sonofason]

I was speaking in general. Though the idea that some "sins" like adultery are found to be deserving of death is more than a little disturbing. However, it does make for a good point to start out with. Taking the mythology literally, believing these things to be factual "laws" and the like lead people down a dangerous road. A road of judgement of others, discrimination, and even hate can blossom. The judgement poured forth from believing in literal interpretations of myth can bring about damage. Just look at how homosexuals are viewed and their fight for equal rights with marriage all because of people's clinging a bible held belief. A specifically chosen one at that as the bible actually defines marriage in many different ways, but as has been seen, people will use it, and the select interpretations from it and chosen passages from it, to justify their needs, wants, and desires, especially when it comes to the judgement and restrictions of others. This is where the "dangerous" comes it quite a bit. Of course, there is always the absurd in it, such as the whale and Jonah, the literal account of Creation and so on that simply are not possible, yet there are those who hold that they are and push that idea that the bible, is again, literal fact. This messes with a child's ability to learn reality from myth, legend from fact, allegory from science. This is an impairment of our children's education and basic learning capabilities.

So, there's just a couple basic ways that taking myth literally is dangerous. Dangerous to people due to discrimination and underlying hatred, and dangerous due to educational impairment.

Do you discriminate against murderers? Would you employ a murderer? Do you discriminate against thieves? Would you knowingly employ a known habitual thief? I wouldn't. Do you discriminate against known pedophiles? Do you discriminate against bullies? Do you discriminate against people you don't like? I do. Do you discriminate against people who are utterly disrespectful to their parents? Do you discriminate against people who break laws? I do. Do you treat everyone the same? I don't. I will discriminate against anyone that I think degrades society and I will discriminate against anyone that I believe strives against that which I believe is good. And I will base what I believe to be good upon scripture, and upon my own conscience.

 

[Draka]

Do you discriminate against murderers?

Would depend upon the circumstances of the killing as to whether I would hold that kill against them.

Would you employ a murderer?

See above.

Do you discriminate against thieves? Would you knowingly employ a known habitual thief?

Again, depends.

Do you discriminate against known pedophiles?

I am leery of them, that due to my own set of personal morals of right and wrong, not due to any book telling what is right and wrong though.

Do you discriminate against bullies?

Bullies are an interesting subject actually. Usually there is some root cause to their bullying that must be discovered to find out why they do what they do. Often times the bully themselves have issues they were raised with that cause them to strike out at others due to inferiority problems and so on. Just taking a "discriminatory" stance against them doesn't help matters really, finding out why they do what they do and trying to stop the pattern is better.

Do you discriminate against people you don't like? I do.

I tend not to just have much to do with those I don't like, rather than actively discriminate (deny rights, take actions against them, prevent them from doing things, having jobs, etc). I just avoid or deal with people as a grown up does.

Do you discriminate against people who are utterly disrespectful to their parents?

Wouldn't that entirely depend on if their parents are worthy of respect?

Do you discriminate against people who break laws? I do.

Depends on the laws and what reasons they were broken really.

Do you treat everyone the same?

I certainly strive to do so. I try to imagine putting myself in other people's shoes whenever possible. When I can't do that, when I have nothing in my life by which to compare to their circumstances which brought them to certain decisions, then I try not to judge them for I cannot say with any certainty what I may or may not have done in their position. That is life and that is fact.

I don't. I will discriminate against anyone that I think degrades society and I will discriminate against anyone that I believe strives against that which I believe is good. And I will base what I believe to be good upon scripture, and upon my own conscience.

If you made your judgments based wholly upon your own conscience, then that would be one thing, but as I pointed out, basing it upon the literal interpretation of scripture is what I find worrying. That is what many do that causes undue discrimination and hate in this world. It is what made the struggle for interracial marriage rights so difficult many years ago, it is what is making same sex marriage rights so difficult now, it is what people are using for their basis to spread hate messages against homosexuals, and even those of other religions. You can believe that the literal belief in the bible does no damage whatsoever, but you will remain wrong in that as long as people are denied equality and discrimination happens in jobs, marriage, housing and so forth all based upon people's "belief" in that book.

 

[Bunyip]

One can be extremely passionate about no Star Wars.

Especially if one shows up at conventions dressed in pointed ears.

That has always been my secret dream - to go to a Star Wars themed wedding dressed as the pointy eared person you refer to.

 

[Willamena]

Yes I agree. Defining 'religious' as 'enthusiastic about' strikes me as just silly.

That's because it's misapplied. People who are religious about Star Wars would understand.

 

[Draka]

That's because it's misapplied. People who are religious about Star Wars would understand.

Or BSG

 

[Bunyip]

That's because it's misapplied. People who are religious about Star Wars would understand.

Sadly true

 

[KnightOwl]

Finding your religious or other supernatural beliefs to be absurdly laughable does not mean I disrespect you. I find Christianity to be absurdly laughable and Catholicism to be piling on the absurdity. Yet when divesting my late mother's things, I gave a Lladro nun figurine to my Catholic brother and sister in law because I thought they would like it.

(These paragraphs are independent of each other... Just thoughts I had as I was reading thru the thread BTW)

I also think Supers (The Brights' term for those holding a Supernatural worldview) often hold religious views they deep down do not believe. Due to cognitive dissonance, they are unable to acknowledge to themselves that they have reason to disbelieve what they think they believe. An example of this is a JW I have known for about 25 years. She often tried to talk me out of my atheistic worldview. A couple of years ago, doctors told her she would die in 24 hours without a blood transfusion. She got the transfusion and though I have not spoken to her directly about it, a mutual friend (her daughter) told me, she has begun to unravel her JW beliefs.

The witnessing I mentioned above were always fun for me because I enjoy a good debate. I know a lot of atheists would consider her attempts at conversion as disrespectful. I find that sad. I don't know what makes people close off others. Fear? Overload? I see it going both ways.

I think often people see disrespect where none exists just like some see discrimination where it is not, or assume discrimination is hare based when it could just be ignorance.

And finally, there is a saying about rights -- "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.". The same concept applies to opinions about theism, I think. Your right to your own unsubstantiated beliefs ends when they infringe on my well being and right to pursuit of happiness. There will never be a perfect middle ground I am afraid, because people have widely varying sensibilities. I have thick skin. Others are hurt or offended by the slightest perception of disrespect.

Oh. One more thing. I believe there are things in Sam Harris' " Letter to a Christian Nation" that would be helpful for Christians to read if they want to understand where "militant atheists" are coming from. I put that in quotes because the people I am referring to, I don't consider to be militant at all. Those atheists I DO consider to be militant don't believe supernaturalism deserves to be tolerated, let alone respected.

 

[Xaxyx]

I would like to echo this sentiment, if I may. It is of paramount importance to me that the distinction between the belief and the believer remain clear. Thus am I always both able and willing to maintain a respect for the believer even while lacking a respect for the belief. This principle extends far beyond religious notions to include beliefs of any sort: paranormal beliefs and spirituality; trusts and friendships; ethical precepts; really any scenario, concept or ideal wherein faith, instinct or emotion might better apply than logic and reason.

While it is undeniable that a person's beliefs are an intrinsic component of that person's identity, it is unusual for any singular belief to be so overarching, so inherently defining, that I for one would be prompted to characterize or categorize that person based solely on that one belief. Instead, I rather prefer to judge a person based on the far broader schema of his or her worldview, personality and mindset. That one or two of the sentiments within the scope of that worldview are distasteful to me -- as, invariably, there always are with anyone -- does not in turn necessarily preclude me from finding that person worthy of my respect. Nor should it.

This dynamic is, sadly, the most common way in which I've found discussions about religion to devolve. A person espouses a religious viewpoint; another person criticizes *that viewpoint*; and the religious person immediately takes offense, operating under the supposed auspices that he or she is being criticized or insulted directly. While this sort of scenario can occur with any discussion (even sports teams, sheesh!) it seems to happen with staggering frequency and predictability in religious debate. And no matter how hard or how often I attempt to reassure my esteemed debate opponent that the former does not imply the latter, I am rarely successful to any meaningful degree.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What might be a good way for people to empathize more with others beliefs?

if both sides acknowledged their beliefs were actually beliefs, that would be a start!

 

[DayRaven]

Real world vs internet world.

Real world: Lots of folks of different religions (or none), colours, shapes and sizes trying to get to work on time to earn money to feed the children and pay the rent. No one gives a damn about Abdul the Muslim in HR or Dave the atheist in the warehouse or Pete the "born again". Abdul, Dave and Pete share a laugh and rate the office women out of ten whilst talking about last nights football results.

Internet world: Abdul, Dave and Pete go home and log on. Ten minutes later Abdul is cursing all infidel, Dave is mocking the spaghetti monster worshippers and Pete says all unbelievers are going to hell.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Generally speaking, I'm a theist and I acknowledge atheists.

 

[walmul]

There are some very good arguments here, but an Atheist and a Theist can never acknowledge each other without getting into some argument or another. We live in a world where information is at our finger tips, some use it to educate themselves, others to see the differences of opinion, others to know their enemies weak spots. Ultimately knowledge is power, and the one with the most power have always ruled! Religion as a whole is starting to take serious heat because of the available information. Never before have knowledge been available at the scale it currently is. The religious should ask themselves, is it possible that we and our forebears have been taken for a ride? Why are there so many ''enemies'' these days, are they really enemies, and do they know something we don't? The Atheist have been in some form of religion before. They are no longer religious, atheism is not a religion, it is a title given to people who do not worship anymore. They don't blindly believe in something, they accept what can be proven, and stand sceptic against hear say. Ultimately religious scriptures is mostly hear say. The theist ''believe'' in those scripture and don't question its content, the Atheist do, and in that difference lies the ''argument''!.