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Brahman in Hinduism and Christian Theology

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
well named, post: 4215741, member: 56282"]I was tempted to get into the list and disagree a bit with some of the points, or at least want to qualify them, but I'm going to hold myself back, because as I keep saying, it's not as if there are no differences. I don't have any issue with some being delimited. That said, I think in several points there may be some conflation of cultural issues, rather than theological ones, per se, and in others perhaps too narrow of a view of the possibilities of "Christian" theology.

Go for it, it will make the conversation evolve. I don't assume absolute truth in my claims.

I also know there are parallels, similarities and differences, my point was in Hinduism Context is paramount,

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree that it's a good idea to try to take traditions as a whole and not merely extract snippets of a text. It's inevitable that I'm doing that somewhat given the presentation, but I am actually interested in Hinduism as Hindus understand it, for what it's worth.

I am a Indian Hindu, and this is how I understand Brahman from my traditional POV, feel free to agree/disagree/comment/correct, all i am doing is my Dharmah where i feel it needs to be heard.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
What started this thread was an interest in the similarities that exist. No one is trying to erase the differences nor to say that the two theologies/philosophies are the same. It's just a matter of emphasis.---I for example am interested in perennial philosophy, which looks across religions at similarities because they are interesting as human universals.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Are there parallels between them?

Note: I expect a comparison to possibly offend both sides, but I find both Hindu and Christian expressions of the Divine to be beautiful (allowing for my perhaps idiosyncratic and incomplete understanding of both, but especially of Hindu beliefs), so I mean the comparison to be respectful of both, and mindful of the real differences between the two traditions. When in doubt, assume I'm an idiot rather than malicious.

Some texts I find inspiring:

athāto brahma jijñāsā
"Now the aspiration is to know Brahman" (Brahma-sutra 1.1)

sarvam khalvidam brahma
"All is truly Brahman" (Chandogya Upanishad, 3.14.1)

tat tvam asi
That [Brahman], Thou art!" (Chandogya Upanishad, 6.8.7)

"...it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." (Galatians 2:20)

"...that God may be all in all" (1 Cor 15:28)

"Who knows Brahman as truth (satyam), knowledge (jñāna), and infinitude (anantam), hidden in the cave of the heart, in the highest heaven, attains all desires" (Taittiriya Upanishad, 2.1)

"That from which beings are born,
that by which, when born, they live
that into which, when dying, they enter,
that you should desire to know:
that is Brahman" (Taittiriya Upanishad, 3.1)

"They should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’..." (Acts 17:27-28, apparently citing Epimenides?)

purnam adah, purnam idam
purnat purnam udachyate;
purnasya purnam adaya,
purnam evavasisyate


"That is Wholeness, this is Wholeness
From Wholeness comes Wholeness
If Wholeness is taken from Wholeness
Wholeness still remains" (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 5.1.1)

"What we have seen is the totality, recapitulated as one;
Received not in essence, but by participation.
Just as if you light a flame from another flame
it is the whole flame you receive" (Symeon the New Theologian, Hymns 1)

"into blind darkness fall those who worship Ignorance
into blinder darkness still fall those who worship Knowledge" (Isa Upanishad)

"You who are beyond, beyond All! What other name befits you
Alone you are ineffable, of every voice you are the source
Alone you are unknowable, from you all thought is born..." (Gregory Nazianzen, Hymn to God)
To summarize all this as I understand it: Brahman means something like the "Ultimate Reality", beyond both knowledge and ignorance, as Pseudo-Dionysius, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Palamas, and other Christian mystics have also said. This ultimate reality, which might also be called "God", is both beyond everything, the source of everything, yet also "hidden in the cave of the heart", as Paul also said, "do you not know you are the temple of the Holy Spirit?" Through love, through wisdom, and through karma (right action) this ultimate reality may be "known".


Absolutely. Holy Spirit, Kundalini, etc. Are same energy/light/knowledge of God raised in the human body at the 7 centers of energy.
Christian scriptures speak of these spinning wheels or spiritual centers, as seven women or seven churches. Seven chakras.
From natural to divine nature.
Our bodies are the church, the temple, the house, the tabernacle of God. All of the scriptures occur within.
We must be enlightened or awakened.
Jacob found God at the place of Pineal, the gland and one of the head chakras right between the west and east hemispheres of the brain.
Natural man Jacob becoming spiritual man (name changed to Israel). 12 tribes of Israel camped around tabernacle of God (12 cranial nerves around brain working in perfect harmony, regulating our senses on an unnatural level)
As lightning shines even from the east to west so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (West and east hemispheres of brain uniting)
This energy must be raised in the human body.
The heavens are the brain. When Paul speaks of the third heaven, he's referring to the holy of the holies being reached, divine reality and ultimate higher conscious in the human. Not easy to achieve. The first heaven is the outer court of the brain.
What Jesus refers to also when he mentions the "some 30 some 60 some 100". Great allegory in reaching the top of Mount Sinai.
"Out of the stem of Jesse" comes this outpouring of energy/light when it's reached. From the brain through the brain stem and into the body.
One truly becomes aware of creation and the Creator when this is reached. It's automatic, it's beyond beautiful. See the divine and a love never known and peace and bliss.
Why it's so important to cast the net on the right side of the ship (Eastern hemisphere of brain).... That's where God comes with thousands of his angels from the brain (light/energy/knowledge of God)
The Western Hemisphere of brain is the more physical, rational, and objective portion of the brain. Combine the 2 sides and it's pretty awesome. (Divine marriage in scripture)

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be raised. (Lift up our conditioned carnal closed minds and just completely surrender through meditation and patiently as that seed resurrects in our hearts and reaches our head centers of energy and pours out this beautiful cosmic energy.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. Holy Spirit, Kundalini, etc. Are same energy/light/knowledge of God raised in the human body at the 7 centers of energy.
Christian scriptures speak of these spinning wheels or spiritual centers, as seven women or seven churches. Seven chakras.
From natural to divine nature.
Our bodies are the church, the temple, the house, the tabernacle of God. All of the scriptures occur within.
We must be enlightened or awakened.
Jacob found God at the place of Pineal, the gland and one of the head chakras right between the west and east hemispheres of the brain.
Natural man Jacob becoming spiritual man (name changed to Israel). 12 tribes of Israel camped around tabernacle of God (12 cranial nerves around brain working in perfect harmony, regulating our senses on an unnatural level)
As lightning shines even from the east to west so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (West and east hemispheres of brain uniting)
This energy must be raised in the human body.
The heavens are the brain. When Paul speaks of the third heaven, he's referring to the holy of the holies being reached, divine reality and ultimate higher conscious in the human. Not easy to achieve. The first heaven is the outer court of the brain.
What Jesus refers to also when he mentions the "some 30 some 60 some 100". Great allegory in reaching the top of Mount Sinai.
"Out of the stem of Jesse" comes this outpouring of energy/light when it's reached. From the brain through the brain stem and into the body.
One truly becomes aware of creation and the Creator when this is reached. It's automatic, it's beyond beautiful. See the divine and a love never known and peace and bliss.
Why it's so important to cast the net on the right side of the ship (Eastern hemisphere of brain).... That's where God comes with thousands of his angels from the brain (light/energy/knowledge of God)
The Western Hemisphere of brain is the more physical, rational, and objective portion of the brain. Combine the 2 sides and it's pretty awesome. (Divine marriage in scripture)

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be raised. (Lift up our conditioned carnal closed minds and just completely surrender through meditation and patiently as that seed resurrects in our hearts and reaches our head centers of energy and pours out this beautiful cosmic energy.

The menorah was also a golden lamp stand that housed seven candles burning seven flames. The menorah is symbolic of the seven chakras.

There are many references.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Q:
Can The trinity of christianity and the manifestations of one supreme god into demi gods (Hindusm) be called similarity? If iam not wrong Hindus believe the supreme God manifested/incarnated on earth into different gods???
Lets say that is the case, how is it different than christianity?


Trinity is closer to Hinduism and ancient belief systems of Assyria, Egypt and Rome. This concept is totally rejected in Judaism, Baihism and Islam, it doesnt exist there at all.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
What started this thread was an interest in the similarities that exist. No one is trying to erase the differences nor to say that the two theologies/philosophies are the same. It's just a matter of emphasis.---I for example am interested in perennial philosophy, which looks across religions at similarities because they are interesting as human universals.

I thought the theme was parallels not similarities, i did not know parallels meant similarities only.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"Servant_of_the_One1, post: 4217478, member: 56651"

Namaste,

Hopefully i haven't killed the thread, but since i've already got my foot in the door, i might as well keep going in..lol
anyways, i will give my perspective on your queries.

Q:Can The trinity of christianity and the manifestations of one supreme god into demi gods (Hindusm) be called similarity?

1) What do you mean by "Demi-God', and "Supreme God"?
2) In Hinduism, Brahmah Creates the Universe, Vishnu Manages/preserve it, Shiva/maheshwara transforms it, and the cycle goes for eternity.
3) Some Hindus believe that "Brahman", is manifest as Vishnu/Bramah/Shiva (broadly known as Bhagwan/Ishwar/Paramatama ect) for this purpose.
4) Some Hindus believe that Vishnu is Supreme, Some believe that Shiva is supreme, while i think there could be some who believe Brahma to be supreme.
5) Me personally, I don't really care, as i consider that they are all Supreme in their own right.

Generally Hindus consider the three" as being "one", but which of the "one" is the "three", that is debatable, but not essential to a devotee. As devotion to either Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma can lead one to Moksha.

If iam not wrong Hindus believe the supreme God manifested/incarnated on earth into different gods???

I think Vishnu has the Avatar monopoly, because being the Manager/Preserver he needs to sometimes manifest himself to re-establish Dharmah.
But i could be wrong, Shiva and Brahma may also have Avatars which some more knowledgeable Hindus can advise.

Lets say that is the case, how is it different than christianity?

I dont know, maybe our Christian Brothers/Sisters can enlighten us.

Trinity is closer to Hinduism and ancient belief systems of Assyria, Egypt and Rome. This concept is totally rejected in Judaism, Baihism and Islam, it doesnt exist there at all.

Why?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Trinity is closer to Hinduism and ancient belief systems of Assyria, Egypt and Rome. This concept is totally rejected in Judaism, Baihism and Islam, it doesnt exist there at all.
How is that important? Hindus reject a God who wants to be worshiped, who creates a universe so that humans can worship him (what a narcissist God!), who treats people differently according to whether one who worships him and others who do not (such bias to his own creations!); has an eternal hell for those who do not worship him (the cruel one!); and needs to send sons, manifestations, messengers to convey his message! Our Gods would just announce their message with 'Akash-vani' (voice from the sky). :)
 
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Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Namaste,

Hopefully i haven't killed the thread, but since i've already got my foot in the door, i might as well keep going in..lol
anyways, i will give my perspective on your queries.



1) What do you mean by "Demi-God', and "Supreme God"?
2) In Hinduism, Brahmah Creates the Universe, Vishnu Manages/preserve it, Shiva/maheshwara transforms it, and the cycle goes for eternity.
3) Some Hindus believe that "Brahman", is manifest as Vishnu/Bramah/Shiva (broadly known as Bhagwan/Ishwar/Paramatama ect) for this purpose.
4) Some Hindus believe that Vishnu is Supreme, Some believe that Shiva is supreme, while i think there could be some who believe Brahma to be supreme.
5) Me personally, I don't really care, as i consider that they are all Supreme in their own right.

Generally Hindus consider the three" as being "one", but which of the "one" is the "three", that is debatable, but not essential to a devotee. As devotion to either Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma can lead one to Moksha.



I think Vishnu has the Avatar monopoly, because being the Manager/Preserver he needs to sometimes manifest himself to re-establish Dharmah.
But i could be wrong, Shiva and Brahma may also have Avatars which some more knowledgeable Hindus can advise.



I dont know, maybe our Christian Brothers/Sisters can enlighten us.



Why?


Your point is there are different of opinions/belief systems within Hinduism about who is the Supreme god that manifest itself into demi gods.... Maybe other hindus like @kiran can give their input about who is the supreme allmighty god in hinduism...

Back to your question of why. Because there is no such belief in islam and the other two. I believe God sents Angels to messengers to convey His words.
That is crucial part of the three religions.



How is that important? Hindus reject a God who wants to be worshiped, who creates a universe so that humans can worship him (what a narcissist God!), who treats people differently according to whether one who worships him and others who do not (such bias to his own creations!); has an eternal hell for those who do not worship him (the cruel one!); and needs to send sons, manifestations, messengers to convey his message! Our Gods would just announce their message with 'Akash-vani' (voice from the sky). :)

I know Hindus rejects monotheism, they are pure polytheists who worships close to everything. But that doesnt mean there are not hindus who believe there is one supreme god who is also manifestation of vishu krishna and so on
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Q:
Can The trinity of christianity and the manifestations of one supreme god into demi gods (Hindusm) be called similarity? If iam not wrong Hindus believe the supreme God manifested/incarnated on earth into different gods???
Lets say that is the case, how is it different than christianity?

The differences are perhaps technical but trinitarian Christians do not believe themselves to be polytheists, nor do they consider the persons of the Trinity to be three "gods". This is a point of contention of course, and I think it's fair to say that trinitarianism is not a simple monotheism either. In any case, the labels are almost certainly inadequate for hinduism, and even within Christian theology I'm not sure they suffice. There are also panentheistic expressions, for example. There are things like the distinction between the "essence" and "energies" of the Divine as in eastern orthodox theology which probably have no exact analogue either in the other Abrahamics nor in Hinduism, nor even in western Christianity. Partly this is because the entire philosophical background is a bit different, and theological descriptions that attempt to say something about the nature of God are not really in isolation from the entire way of thinking that may predominate in a culture. The "substances" of greek philosophy, in which greek theology fit the concept of God, are not the same as semitic categories about the identity of the Divine, are not the same as in Indian philosophy.

I thought the theme was parallels not similarities, i did not know parallels meant similarities only.

It's always a fascinating thing how language works. I did indeed mean mainly similarities but there's nothing wrong with the way you heard it.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
How is that important? Hindus reject a God who wants to be worshiped, who creates a universe so that humans can worship him (what a narcissist God!), who treats people differently according to whether one who worships him and others who do not (such bias to his own creations!); has an eternal hell for those who do not worship him (the cruel one!); and needs to send sons, manifestations, messengers to convey his message! Our Gods would just announce their message with 'Akash-vani' (voice from the sky). :)

At least some Christians also would chafe at some of your descriptions. For example I would consider the description of God "wanting" worship or creating a universe in order to demand worship to be overly anthropomorphized, as well as overly simplistic. I am a universalist with regard to hell and punishment, meaning that I do not believe anyone will be eternally tormented (and the truth is their is no systematic treatise about the nature of hell and judgement in Christian scripture, hence the wide variety of beliefs), and I would also, alongside a great many Christians, say that God does "speak" to us "directly" in a variety of ways, and not merely through intermediaries.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I imagine that you would feel some displeasure at overly simplistic accounts of Hinduism from a western Christian perspective, i.e accusations of idolatry that assumed certain religious norms about the nature of God, or accusations of "primitive" polytheism, or whatever. I'm imagining you can supply many examples offered by ignorant Christians. It is also possible to caricaturize Christianity and I think your description above is in danger of being such, even if it also contains a seed of valid criticism as well, as in, I would make many similar criticisms of forms of Christian belief which I think are harmful and inadequate reflections of Christian tradition.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
How is that important? Hindus reject a God who wants to be worshiped, who creates a universe so that humans can worship him (what a narcissist God!)...

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te
pratijāne priyo 'si me

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 18 Verse 65

This verse always kind of disturbed me.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Alright, I'll dive in and respond to a few points here. The ones I skip you can just assume I agree, or that whatever quibbles I might have are not important enough to mention :D

If we take snippets of quotes from different books without taking the entire concepts, we lose the context and without the context everything is the same or everything has a parallel to it.

Agreed.

1) In Hinduism, as your quote of the Brahma Sutra and Chandogya suggest, the desire to know Brahman is initiated by the one seeking, by the devotee and the Bhaktar, if one does not have the desire to know Brahman, then Brahman will not be known to them, and will remain Nirguna. Brahman does not intervene in History to a particular person at a particular time in order for that person to know Brahman and then to propagate the message of Brahman. Brahman as the Brihadaranyaka suggests is "Purna", complete/All/Everything, it in it self does not take Avatar, only one aspect/attribute of Brahman takes Avatar (Saguna) to re-establish Dharmah, but Brahman as a Wholeness is always Nirguna and Saguna at the same time.

Re: intervention - While of course Christian and Jewish tradition involves the idea of Divine intervention via prophets at various times, or even the incarnation, the implication that, in Christianity, God can only be known through those interventions, i.e in some historical way, is wrong in my opinion. Nor is it necessary to understand (for example) the Hebrew prophetic literature as a message imposed from the outside entirely, with no initiation or influence of the human authors. In fact I would say that there is no other reasonable hermeneutic possible but to see sacred scriptures as (also) human works. I don't believe that the christian scriptures are the dictated word of God with no involvement from the human beings who composed them, or that God "speaks" in human language rather than in "silence". The simplistic view of revelation is associated with fundamentalism but throughout Christian history a great many Christians have understood "inspiration" in a more nuanced way. It also does seem to me that Hinduism, in the epics especially, contains sacred writings that bear some similarity to the narratives of Hebrew and Christian scripture, if they were taken literally. But of course part of my point is that I don't read even the Christian scriptures literally.

Re: the "whole" - There are definite differences here but especially as you move from the Hebrew understanding of God to later Christian theology, there are also some similarities. God, Paul writes, will be "all in all". The scholastic tradition associates God with Being itself, or as the Ground of Being.


3) In Hinduism, in both the Advaita and Dvaita darshans, there is no second to Brahman nor nothing equal to Brahman, There is no concept of such things as the Devil or AntiChrist ect.

Just to be clear, no Christian sect considers the devil or antichrist to be equal to God.
5) Brahman has not sent a message of worship to the Humans, Knowledge of Vidya and Avidya both lead to different destinations as the next mantra of the Isha you quoted has advised.

I've been reading the Isha closer lately and I'm not thrilled with my quote. Well, I like it and it's meaningful to me in the way I used it, but it's certainly not a perfect representation of the text, and might better be translated as "knowledge" and "action". The contemplative life versus the active life. And I agree with it that fulness of life includes both. It's a wonderful text. I'm sorry I didn't do it proper justice.
6) Brahman does not instill fear in the Human, there is not penalty for not believing, there is no end of time when all will be judged by Brahman.

Are there no hindu texts which emphasize the nature of the divine in a way that might inspire fear or overwhelming awe? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm interested. I would say that in Christian thought it is complex because there is at once this idea that God is this awe-inspiring reality that "normal" human consciousness may respond to with fear, but at the same time Jesus in all his appearances post-resurrection says "do not be afraid", and the author of John's epistle says that perfect love casts out all fear. My opinion, backed up by long tradition in Christianity, is that "fear" represents a lower stage of spiritual development, and love a higher one. "Fear of God" is not an ultimately important trait in the way that the experience of the fullness of love is.
7) Brahman is not against Murti Puja (What the Christian God calls Idol worship)

Even within Christianity there are disagreements. My worship involves an abundance of icons and sacred objects. I perform bows to them, perfume them with incense, make prostrations, and etc. Some Christians believe this is idolatry, but many others do not. It is possible to read the texts about idolatry, which are derived from the older Hebrew tradition, as emphasizing the need to understand that the idol in itself is nothing (as Paul wrote), nor is the icon, but if what is worshipped in the image is beyond the image (and in Christian theology, as with Brahman(?) beyond all images...) that is not idolatry. I believe that many Hindus would have similar understandings of what Murti Puja is? The Murti is a manifestation, a representation.
8) Brahman has not given one person limited commandments on morality or ethics ect, like in Christianity.

The Christian understanding of ethical law is certainly less legalistic than Judaism. The whole of the law is to love God and your neighbor as your very own self, and those are not really two laws, but one and the same. The "letter" of the law kills, but the Spirit of God gives life. I don't think Christianity should be reduced to a set of moral laws.

11) No science VS religion wars in Hinduism, so to many Hindus Brahman is a scientific theory to explain the Universe, and Brahman does not contradict any Scientific facts.

Seems like more of a cultural thing than a theological thing. And certainly while it may be possible to conceive of Brahman in a way that is scientifically unfalsified, it's also true that most naturalists would consider the conception to still be unjustified or superfluous, just as they would any other concept of divinity. There are certainly also Christian conceptions of the Divine about which I could say the same. I attempt to understand God in a way that is at least not immediately irrational or falsified by scientific evidence. And certainly also both religious traditions, widely construed, contain elements of which science will be skeptical.

12) No concept of Sacred vs Profane in Hinduism, as Brahman is "Purna", everything is sacred to a Hindu.

Once a certain theological mindset is reached, this is true also for Christians. Paul writes about Christian freedom, whether in terms of eating food sacrificed to idols, or with regard to "holy days" and certain religious observation. But, as I presume is also true in Hinduism, while everything is sacred, nevertheless both Hindus and Christians practice religion in certain ritualized ways. The temple is not really more "sacred" than anywhere else, but it is useful to humans to set aside spaces and times in which to call the divine into remembrance. This is a human thing. Ideally, we would be always perfectly in that presence, but rituals and sacred spaces help us.

13) Brahman is imminent and transcendent at the same time, there is no heaven where Brahman lives, nor Hell which Brahman made.

"The kingdom of heaven is within you." St Symeon the New Theologian said that if we did not enjoy "heaven" now, if we did not experience the real presence of God, than we would not experience it later either. I would suggest that, functionally, the purpose of Heaven and Hell as symbols in Christian thought is somewhat equivalent to the functional meaning of Karma. Not to say that some Christians both now and always have taken them more literally, just as some Hindus probably take reincarnation and karma more literally. But again, much Christian theology suggests a more nuanced approach.
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
How is that important? Hindus reject a God who wants to be worshiped, who creates a universe so that humans can worship him (what a narcissist God!), who treats people differently according to whether one who worships him and others who do not (such bias to his own creations!); has an eternal hell for those who do not worship him (the cruel one!); and needs to send sons, manifestations, messengers to convey his message! Our Gods would just announce their message with 'Akash-vani' (voice from the sky). :)

Worship would be just to love others peaceably and have a pure heart and mind. Everything we do, we are doing it to God.
When you say, "from the sky" are you referring literally or of a still small voice in your conscious?
Sons, manifestations, messengers would be metaphorical for bringers of light (knowledge and wisdom and will of God into the conscious)
Agreed. Hell would be a state of conscious, or perhaps in a decaying body here on literal Earth.
Sure, we are all given the same source of life, and all are one, uniquely. We carry out creation.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Alright, I'll dive in and respond to a few points here. The ones I skip you can just assume I agree, or that whatever quibbles I might have are not important enough to mention :D



Agreed.



Re: intervention - While of course Christian and Jewish tradition involves the idea of Divine intervention via prophets at various times, or even the incarnation, the implication that, in Christianity, God can only be known through those interventions, i.e in some historical way, is wrong in my opinion. Nor is it necessary to understand (for example) the Hebrew prophetic literature as a message imposed from the outside entirely, with no initiation or influence of the human authors. In fact I would say that there is no other reasonable hermeneutic possible but to see sacred scriptures as (also) human works. I don't believe that the christian scriptures are the dictated word of God with no involvement from the human beings who composed them, or that God "speaks" in human language rather than in "silence". The simplistic view of revelation is associated with fundamentalism but throughout Christian history a great many Christians have understood "inspiration" in a more nuanced way. It also does seem to me that Hinduism, in the epics especially, contains sacred writings that bear some similarity to the narratives of Hebrew and Christian scripture, if they were taken literally. But of course part of my point is that I don't read even the Christian scriptures literally.

Re: the "whole" - There are definite differences here but especially as you move from the Hebrew understanding of God to later Christian theology, there are also some similarities. God, Paul writes, will be "all in all". The scholastic tradition associates God with Being itself, or as the Ground of Being.




Just to be clear, no Christian sect considers the devil or antichrist to be equal to God.


I've been reading the Isha closer lately and I'm not thrilled with my quote. Well, I like it and it's meaningful to me in the way I used it, but it's certainly not a perfect representation of the text, and might better be translated as "knowledge" and "action". The contemplative life versus the active life. And I agree with it that fulness of life includes both. It's a wonderful text. I'm sorry I didn't do it proper justice.


Are there no hindu texts which emphasize the nature of the divine in a way that might inspire fear or overwhelming awe? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm interested. I would say that in Christian thought it is complex because there is at once this idea that God is this awe-inspiring reality that "normal" human consciousness may respond to with fear, but at the same time Jesus in all his appearances post-resurrection says "do not be afraid", and the author of John's epistle says that perfect love casts out all fear. My opinion, backed up by long tradition in Christianity, is that "fear" represents a lower stage of spiritual development, and love a higher one. "Fear of God" is not an ultimately important trait in the way that the experience of the fullness of love is.


Even within Christianity there are disagreements. My worship involves an abundance of icons and sacred objects. I perform bows to them, perfume them with incense, make prostrations, and etc. Some Christians believe this is idolatry, but many others do not. It is possible to read the texts about idolatry, which are derived from the older Hebrew tradition, as emphasizing the need to understand that the idol in itself is nothing (as Paul wrote), nor is the icon, but if what is worshipped in the image is beyond the image (and in Christian theology, as with Brahman(?) beyond all images...) that is not idolatry. I believe that many Hindus would have similar understandings of what Murti Puja is? The Murti is a manifestation, a representation.


The Christian understanding of ethical law is certainly less legalistic than Judaism. The whole of the law is to love God and your neighbor as your very own self, and those are not really two laws, but one and the same. The "letter" of the law kills, but the Spirit of God gives life. I don't think Christianity should be reduced to a set of moral laws.



Seems like more of a cultural thing than a theological thing. And certainly while it may be possible to conceive of Brahman in a way that is scientifically unfalsified, it's also true that most naturalists would consider the conception to still be unjustified or superfluous, just as they would any other concept of divinity. There are certainly also Christian conceptions of the Divine about which I could say the same. I attempt to understand God in a way that is at least not immediately irrational or falsified by scientific evidence. And certainly also both religious traditions, widely construed, contain elements of which science will be skeptical.



Once a certain theological mindset is reached, this is true also for Christians. Paul writes about Christian freedom, whether in terms of eating food sacrificed to idols, or with regard to "holy days" and certain religious observation. But, as I presume is also true in Hinduism, while everything is sacred, nevertheless both Hindus and Christians practice religion in certain ritualized ways. The temple is not really more "sacred" than anywhere else, but it is useful to humans to set aside spaces and times in which to call the divine into remembrance. This is a human thing. Ideally, we would be always perfectly in that presence, but rituals and sacred spaces help us.



"The kingdom of heaven is within you." St Symeon the New Theologian that if we did not enjoy "heaven" now, if we did not experience the real presence of God, than we would not experience it later either. I would suggest that, functionally, the purpose of Heaven and Hell as symbols in Christian thought is somewhat equivalent to the functional meaning of Karma. Not to say that some Christians both now and always have taken them more literally, just as some Hindus probably take reincarnation and karma more literally. But again, much Christian theology suggests a more nuanced approach.

Very thorough and well said!!
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"well named, post: 4222279, member: 56282"]

Namaste,

Thanks for the response, ill take the same road as you, anything that i don't respond to can be taken as agreement or of non relevance.

.....It also does seem to me that Hinduism, in the epics especially, contains sacred writings that bear some similarity to the narratives of Hebrew and Christian scripture, if they were taken literally. But of course part of my point is that I don't read even the Christian scriptures literally.

Yes, the overall set out out of the Smriti (That which is remembered) like Ramayana and Mahabharatta (Ithihasa), to me seems to have similarities with the Christian Bible (NT i think moreso, not sure about Jewish tradition). Obviously the overall message and themes are different, but the style is quite similar. These have accounts of some actual Historical and Geographical elements mixed in with myths and stories/ethics/morals/ideals/lessons ect. to get the message out to the masses.

In Hinduism these are well respected, much can be learned from Ithihas for Hindus (I wish every Hindu may read them), but still come under the category of Smriti, so one can write a new Ithihas (Smriti) relevant to the time and place and events that are more contextual to the present or relevant situation. The Smriti are not meant to be interpreted too much out of context, nor taken too literally, like Krishna in the Mahabharatta cannot be a metaphor for something else, or Ram cannot be psychoanalyzed in order to understand his personality or reasons for acting the way he did, nor is it meant for us to try to justify/reinterpret any events in them because it may go against the modern times, the most important thing is Dharmah and the lessons of Dharmah in them.

Ramayana predates Mahabharatta, both have different Dharmah lessons as both are of different times and places, but Both are relevant to many Hindus, the Mahabharatta did not supersede the Dharmah of the Ramayana.

So in Hinduism we don't have to rely completely on the Smriti for our spirituality nor are we to view them as absolute and unchangeable in any sense, we don't have to change the e.g: Mahabharatta text in order to progress, it stays the way it has been, but we can write our own Ithihas and add to it or have it separate but respect for the original is advised as it holds so much we can learn from. (Obviously some specialized Sampradayas will disagree to this).


Just to be clear, no Christian sect considers the devil or antichrist to be equal to God.

Ok i understand they are not viewed as equal, but there is still a notion that the "Devil", or "Antichrist", are in opposition to "God", that is what i meant.

Are there no hindu texts which emphasize the nature of the divine in a way that might inspire fear or overwhelming awe? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm interested. I would say that in Christian thought it is complex because there is at once this idea that God is this awe-inspiring reality that "normal" human consciousness may respond to with fear, but at the same time Jesus in all his appearances post-resurrection says "do not be afraid", and the author of John's epistle says that perfect love casts out all fear. My opinion, backed up by long tradition in Christianity, is that "fear" represents a lower stage of spiritual development, and love a higher one. "Fear of God" is not an ultimately important trait in the way that the experience of the fullness of love is.

There could be some instances where the devotee feels overwhelming awe or fear, but that is only in the context of when the devotee has been witness directly of their chosen Deva/Devi, but i don't think that any texts advise worship out of fear, such as fear of damnation.
Even within Christianity there are disagreements. My worship involves an abundance of icons and sacred objects. I perform bows to them, perfume them with incense, make prostrations, and etc. Some Christians believe this is idolatry, but many others do not. It is possible to read the texts about idolatry, which are derived from the older Hebrew tradition, as emphasizing the need to understand that the idol in itself is nothing (as Paul wrote), nor is the icon, but if what is worshipped in the image is beyond the image (and in Christian theology, as with Brahman(?) beyond all images...) that is not idolatry. I believe that many Hindus would have similar understandings of what Murti Puja is? The Murti is a manifestation, a representation.

Yes many Hindus will agree that the Murti is manifestation, but the Murti can also be direct physical perception of the Deva/Devi IMO, as traditionally when making the Murti (which has strict rules on how each should be portrayed/constructed traditionally) they also perform pranaprashta (not sure about spelling), where the Deva/Devi enter into the murti them selfs giving it life. That is why it is respected by Hindus, obviously the material is not itself worshiped but the Devta that pervades the material is, and obviously not just any material can be used, ever seen a murti of leather?

Seems like more of a cultural thing than a theological thing. And certainly while it may be possible to conceive of Brahman in a way that is scientifically unfalsified, it's also true that most naturalists would consider the conception to still be unjustified or superfluous, just as they would any other concept of divinity. There are certainly also Christian conceptions of the Divine about which I could say the same. I attempt to understand God in a way that is at least not immediately irrational or falsified by scientific evidence. And certainly also both religious traditions, widely construed, contain elements of which science will be skeptical.

What i mean is that Hindus culturally have not been against science, so we did not have the math wars or science wars or whatever, specifically because of our theology of Brahman and the cosmos which is/was nothing separate from our material outlook in life, and having texts as Smriti is one of those reasons.

...... I would suggest that, functionally, the purpose of Heaven and Hell as symbols in Christian thought is somewhat equivalent to the functional meaning of Karma. Not to say that some Christians both now and always have taken them more literally, just as some Hindus probably take reincarnation and karma more literally....

What do you think is the Function of Karma?
When you say literal "Karma and "Re-Incarnation", this comment seems odd, as from what i understand of both, What is you understanding of these?
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"Servant_of_the_One1, post: 4221453, member: 56651"]

Your point is there are different of opinions/belief systems within Hinduism about who is the Supreme god that manifest itself into demi gods.... Maybe other hindus like @kiran can give their input about who is the supreme allmighty god in hinduism...

I think In Hinduism, every devotee has his/hers supreme Deva/Devi.
My point is that we have the freedom to have different views and beliefs in Hinduism, it is no sin to disagree.

Back to your question of why. Because there is no such belief in islam and the other two. I believe God sents Angels to messengers to convey His words.That is crucial part of the three religions.

Ok, but why are there no such beliefs in Islam?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
What do you think is the Function of Karma?
When you say literal "Karma and "Re-Incarnation", this comment seems odd, as from what i understand of both, What is you understanding of these?

By literal I mean a view of reincarnation in which the individual soul does in fact live again in some other form, whether human or animal. Or that there is a real place fitting a certain description which we "go" to, called Heaven. When I referred to a more symbolic understanding I meant that it might not treat the ideas as being entirely true as objective descriptions.

By "function" I mean something like that heaven/hell and karma arise as concepts from a concern about "justice" as a kind of transcendental. We all experience that in our lives things happen which seem unjust and life, or the universe, as it were, does not immediately intervene to restore the balance of justice, so to speak. But we have this idea that eventually the consequences of our choices matter. Now obviously with karma there is the idea of consequences being a more immediate and demythologized thing, or at least I have heard some people describe it in those terms, but the comparison between heaven/hell and reincarnation is that in a sense the concepts put off into the future the just consequences of present decisions.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"well named, post: 4223892, member: 56282"]By literal I mean a view of reincarnation in which the individual soul does in fact live again in some other form, whether human or animal. Or that there is a real place fitting a certain description which we "go" to, called Heaven. When I referred to a more symbolic understanding I meant that it might not treat the ideas as being entirely true as objective descriptions.

Namaste,

My opinion regarding the literal meaning of Purn Janma/Purn Mritue (Previous birth/Previous death, Re-birth or re-incarnation), well that is the literal meaning.
This is because the Atman (Not equal to the notion of Soul), is viewed as eternal but non evolving or changing, and so is the universe believed to be eternal but it is evolving and changing, and there is also a transition and change or evolution (if you want to call it that) within the universe in its particulars, so the Atman (being eternal and non evolving) moves in this Universe (Being eternal yet ever changing) according to the natural laws that govern and the effects (Phala) of the Karma it conducts while engaged in Prakriti. This is basics of why we have plurality of life on this planet according to Hindus. Obviously there is more explanation to it as the concepts/theory of Karma, Atman, Prakriti, Dharmah, Sanskara ect are all dependent on each other, so one cannot be explained without the other.

By "function" I mean something like that heaven/hell and karma arise as concepts from a concern about "justice" as a kind of transcendental. We all experience that in our lives things happen which seem unjust and life, or the universe, as it were, does not immediately intervene to restore the balance of justice, so to speak. But we have this idea that eventually the consequences of our choices matter. Now obviously with karma there is the idea of consequences being a more immediate and demythologized thing, or at least I have heard some people describe it in those terms, but the comparison between heaven/hell and reincarnation is that in a sense the concepts put off into the future the just consequences of present decisions.

Karma as a concern for "Justice", yes, and yes would also agree Karma is also consequences of actions. And yes many believe the consequences are somewhat immediate in some cases. But obviously the consequences themselves are different between Hell/Heaven and Karma, as in Karma the consequences (Phala) does not precede the Karma performed, but only comes into existence once a Karm is done, unlike hell for non believers, or Heaven for those who are saved.

Also the consequences are not eternal, unlike the popular versions of heaven/hell, also Karmas don't have a defined consequence (Phala), unlike the consequence of going to heaven or hell which are pre-defined consequences with somewhat pre-established actions which lead to either/or situation e.g: believing in Jesus = going to Heaven, but there is no doing good karma with guarantee of good karma back. And the idea of the Karma Phala is not just based on the current life we live or the Karmas we do now, it is interwoven with the Atman and its eternity much unlike the Soul which was created at some point in time in Humans only and has only one life (finite) to act (in a certain pre-prescribed way) to either suffer or enjoy the (pre-established) consequences for eternity or after death only.

Dhanyavad.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I think In Hinduism, every devotee has his/hers supreme Deva/Devi.
My point is that we have the freedom to have different views and beliefs in Hinduism, it is no sin to disagree.

Ok, but why are there no such beliefs in Islam?

Because they are strict monotheists and would view a trinity as polytheism. Therefore such ideas are forbidden.
 
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