Baptism For The Dead (1 Corinthians 15:29)

[Hong Xiuquan]

Okay, I agree. But Christ didn't really explain all that much to the thief on the cross, did He? I suspect that when the thief found himself in Paradise after he died, he would have been very desirous of learning all he could about the teachings of the Man who made his salvation possible. I'm glad to see that you recognize that there is a place (Paradise/Abraham's Bosom) where the righteous await the resurrection. Is it really such a stretch to believe that the unrighteous -- particularly the ones who never heard of Christ during their lifetimes -- also await the resurrection and could be given the privilege to be taught the truth during that period of time? And are you aware of the early Judeo-Christian beliefs concerning the state of the spirits of those who have died? They are remarkably similar to the LDS view.

You can share if you wish, about that.

The beautiful thing about being in Heaven with Jesus is that people can talk to Jesus about anything.....and the thief would have had many questions, I'm sure. Jesus would have been pleased to share all the answers. I have many questions for Jesus myself. Heaven will be fun. I will be able to talk to all the saints of old and ask them questions. There will be so many people in Heaven. It will not be a boring place.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Hahahaha. No. I drink coffee so I'm not clean enough to enter God's House.

You are referring to the Mormon view that drinking coffee is a sin. I'm an addict (Sorry Mormons). Seriously, I sometimes drink 10 cups a day. I know it's not healthy. However, it's better than drinking alcohol and smoking.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: What is the age of when written records were started? We have written records written since Adam and Eve the first parents of the human race. Would this not have been the age of written records?

I think the person is referring to all the cultures who were without a written language....up until quite recently.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I believe the LDS church isn't what it claims to be and people have a right to that information. I believe the LDS church is a dangerous, harmful organization. Coming onto a religious debate forum once in awhile qualifies as not leaving it alone? Ha!

But in your eyes, I suppose this means Mormonism is true because I "cannot leave it alone". Whatever floats your boat.

I was in Taiwan teaching English where Mormons are very active. I met some ex-Mormons who had left the LDS church.....and had also left Christianity too. As a result of your bad experience with the Mormon church, have you written off Christianity and religion altogether? I hope this is not the case. Just because you have a bad experience with one religion, it does not mean you will have a bad experience with another. For me, Christianity has always been a positive thing for me. My sisters went through exactly the same things as me, but experienced Christianity in a negative way.....and therefore left Jesus in their teens.....and wrote off all religion as a result. Even my father who was a pastor for 10 years left Jesus. My mother and brother are still Christians.

Many people just follow what their parents do. My father came to me, and told me he had been wrong.....and that I could give up Christianity. This is the ultimate test. Was I a Christian based on my parents' belief, or could I stand on my own feet and walk alone? I found that I could because I knew the Bible well. I'd already read it 5 times when my father came to apologize. So, what does this all mean? We need to know the Bible well.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur: God is fair. He knows what he is doing. He knows the hearts of men. My mother used to say when I was little "it's possible that God would look at the hearts of the people who have never heard Christ and judge them a different way. Maybe he looks and sees what they would have done had they been presented with the gospel". We have to leave it to God. He is the judge and knows what to do.

Of course God is fair. Of course He knows what He is doing and knows the hearts of men. I can understand why your mother would have said what she did. That's a much better answer than just assuming that if someone hadn't accepted Jesus Christ in his lifetime, he'd be cast into eternal torment. Your mother presented a "possible" scenario, one she believed was entirely reasonable. You might want to think of the Mormon belief as another "possible" scenario, since the Bible itself doesn't actually address this point. Of course, we believe that the idea of the gospel being taught in the spirit world after death is a doctrine that has been revealed to latter-day prophets. Therefore, to us it's not just "possible" but is "the truth."

Just consider one thing... Isn't it an enormous blessing to know that the Son of God loved you so much that He was willing to suffer and die to pay for your sins? Imagine having lived your life not knowing this (let's say you had lived in the 3rd century in Mongolia or were even living today in North Korea). You died without this knowledge, but God permitted you to enter heaven anyway (based on different criteria than He did the the Christian). While it's true that you'd be "saved," you would never have known the beautiful truth of Christ's grace or had the incredible knowledge that the Christian had. There is something to be said for having a knowledge of Jesus Christ and a sure faith in Him and a gratitude to Him for what He did for you. It's not just about ending up in heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

You are referring to the Mormon view that drinking coffee is a sin. I'm an addict (Sorry Mormons). Seriously, I sometimes drink 10 cups a day. I know it's not healthy. However, it's better than drinking alcohol and smoking.

Personally, I don't think of it so much as a sin as just not taking good care of your body. When God gave the revelation to Joseph Smith, He specifically said that He was not giving it as a commandment but as a "word of wisdom." Hence, the revelation's name -- The Word of Wisdom. And I would agree that it's definitely not as bad for you as alcohol and tobacco are.

 

[zomg]

Personally, I don't think of it so much as a sin as just not taking good care of your body. When God gave the revelation to Joseph Smith, He specifically said that He was not giving it as a commandment but as a "word of wisdom." Hence, the revelation's name -- The Word of Wisdom. And I would agree that it's definitely not as bad for you as alcohol and tobacco are.

Except the Word of Wisdom IS a commandment now and will keep a person out of the temple/heaven if they don't follow it.

 

[Norman]

See, I don't really agree with that assessment. The 'teachings', can be, and are, taught in such a manner, half the time, that there is debate whether how it is being taught is really the correct method.

Norman: Yes, you are correct, unfortunately this has and is the problem with-in Christianity. However, Paul taught that Ephesians4:5 There is‍ one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father‍ of all, who is‍ above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace‍ according to the measure of the gift of Christ. So, someone has to be right and I believe by grace we can know for ourselves. By the grace of Jesus Christ we have the ability to know for certainty what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is.

I personally, if anything, am not agreeing with much if not most 'Xian proponent argumentation', to the extreme of complete rejection of many themes, which I think are incorrect, and confusing, etc. So, it's not as simple as you say. In some sense, what I said is necessarily true, because the person has to take it upon themselves, at some point, to figure out what Xianity is. What's interesting, is that what I think it is, differs in even theology related issues, to many other self labeled Xians. So, who's right. Is one version wrong, etc.

Norman: You make a valid point, we as individuals as you stated have to find out for ourselves what Christianity is. My experience has been through study, prayer and the Holy Ghost. There is no greater witness than from the Holy Ghost, spirit to our spirit. Paul taught 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. So, there must be truth since with God there is no confusion. I believe the confusion comes from man and Satan. You are correct that it is not simple, however, I believe it is possible. Isaiah taught that we learn the gospel step by step.

Isaiah 28:9¶Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned‍ from the milk, and‍ drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be‍ upon precept, precept‍ upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and‍ there a little: 13 But the word of the Lord‍ was unto them precept upon precept, precept‍ upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and‍ there a little; that they might go, and fall‍ backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 ¶Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is‍ in Jerusalem.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness‍ with our spirit that we are the children‍ of God: The Holy Ghost shall teach you all things John 14:26

Holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost: 2 Peter 1:21 (In my opinion if men of old wrote and spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, would we not need that same spirit to know understand what was written?)

Paul taught it clearly as stated. Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tiding’s of good things? (Evidently someone has to be sent to teach and there has to be a student to teach)

 

[Norman]

I believe the LDS church isn't what it claims to be and people have a right to that information. I believe the LDS church is a dangerous, harmful organization. Coming onto a religious debate forum once in awhile qualifies as not leaving it alone? Ha!

But in your eyes, I suppose this means Mormonism is true because I "cannot leave it alone". Whatever floats your boat.

Norman: Evidently you have put yourself into a state of apostasy. I assume that you have been ex-communicated and I think my guess would be right on the money. I take no pleasure in seeing
any members leave the Church. I hope and pray that you will pray to Heavenly Father to help you forgive others and return back into the fold. I do not look down on you in anyway, please consider coming back to Church.

 

[Norman]

Except the Word of Wisdom IS a commandment now and will keep a person out of the temple/heaven if they don't follow it.

Norman: Hi zomg, this has nothing to do with the OP

 

[Norman]

I stopped believing. Does it matter?

Norman: No, I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[zomg]

Norman: Hi zomg, this has nothing to do with the OP

I didn't bring it up.

 

[Norman]

Katzpur: God is fair. He knows what he is doing. He knows the hearts of men. My mother used to say when I was little "it's possible that God would look at the hearts of the people who have never heard Christ and judge them a different way. Maybe he looks and sees what they would have done had they been presented with the gospel". We have to leave it to God. He is the judge and knows what to do.

Norman: Yes Hong Xiuquan, God is fair and He does know what he is doing. That is why the grave will not thwart the gospel of Jesus Christ. The atonement of Jesus Christ has made it possible for those who have passed on from this life to be given the same chance to be taught the gospel and they have there agency to accept it or reject it. Peter testified that the gospel was preached to the dead, the Lord provided Baptism for the dead for those who were not baptized by the proper authority and again, they will have there agency to accept or reject the baptism. The Lord works thru others, that is why we had Apostles and Prophets and that is how we received the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Families are forever.

 

[zomg]

Norman: Evidently you have put yourself into a state of apostasy. I assume that you have been ex-communicated and I think my guess would be right on the money. I take no pleasure in seeing
any members leave the Church. I hope and pray that you will pray to Heavenly Father to help you forgive others and return back into the fold. I do not look down on you in anyway, please consider coming back to Church.

This has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Norman]

This has nothing to do with the OP.

Norman: Your the one that started with negative comments about the Church of which had nothing to do with the OP. Do yourself a favor and do not post anymore in this thread.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Just consider one thing... Isn't it an enormous blessing to know that the Son of God loved you so much that He was willing to suffer and die to pay for your sins? Imagine having lived your life not knowing this (let's say you had lived in the 3rd century in Mongolia or were even living today in North Korea). You died without this knowledge, but God permitted you to enter heaven anyway (based on different criteria than He did the the Christian). While it's true that you'd be "saved," you would never have known the beautiful truth of Christ's grace or had the incredible knowledge that the Christian had. There is something to be said for having a knowledge of Jesus Christ and a sure faith in Him and a gratitude to Him for what He did for you. It's not just about ending up in heaven.

Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he did" (John 8:56). This implies that Jesus had explained to Abraham his plan before it happened. We can also make an assumption based on this: that Jesus shared his future plan with all those he counted righteous who had passed away, before he died and rose again. Therefore everyone in Heaven would have knowledge of how they made it there.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: Yes Hong Xiuquan, God is fair and He does know what he is doing. That is why the grave will not thwart the gospel of Jesus Christ. The atonement of Jesus Christ has made it possible for those who have passed on from this life to be given the same chance to be taught the gospel and they have there agency to accept it or reject it. Peter testified that the gospel was preached to the dead, the Lord provided Baptism for the dead for those who were not baptized by the proper authority and again, they will have there agency to accept or reject the baptism. The Lord works thru others, that is why we had Apostles and Prophets and that is how we received the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Families are forever.

Norm: This following reply is not an attack, so please take it in a friendly tone. Do you view the teaching of reincarnation as evil? Reincarnation gives people hope....a second chance....and a third chance and more....Mormon theology gives people more than one chance too. I see any teaching that offers more than one chance as a sign that the devil is involved with that. Satan likes to teach reincarnation because he wants to fool people into believing that they don't need to find salvation in this life. Chris Kline's demon taught her that reincarnation was true. It seems that the devil is consistent in this teaching. He likes to offer people more than one chance. In reality there is only one chance and once you die, that's it.

Gulshan Esther's Brother's Conversion After Visiting Hell

This is verbatim from The Torn Veil by Gulshan Esther pp.151b- 152a:

"One day in 1990 I had a phone call from my younger brother Alim Shah. He told me excitedly that he wanted me to come to Pakistan as soon as I could, as he had some important news. I made preparations to go immediately, but could never have guessed what I was to be told.

Alim said that he had a massive heart attack, his third, and was taken to the UCH Hospital in Lahore- an American hospital run by Christians. There he was pronounced dead, and his body was undressed and laid on a slab in an empty room. the doctor then locked the door while he completed all the paperwork, including the death certificate. His family were informed of his death and were asked to collect the body.

Meanwhile my now-dead brother found himself in a terrible place. He realized that it must be Hell, because everyone seemed to be burning in a fire. Alim was in a corner and by this time was screaming and shouting for help. Then he noticed what looked like starlight, and in the middle of the light was a crowd of people who were worshipping a man they called Jesus, the Son of God. He recognized the name that I had spoken to him about so often. He then approached Jesus and said, " Please, Jesus, you helped my sister Gulshan, please, help me. You are the only one who can get me out of this terrible place."

Then Jesus looked at Alim, and said, "My son, leave this place and live for me."

Suddenly Alim woke up to find himself in a locked room, naked and lying on a slab. Eight hours had passed since he was pronounced dead. He got up, found his clothes in a cupboard, dressed, and then waited for someone to find him.

When the houseboy, who had been told by the doctor to get the dead body to give to the family, saw Alim sitting up on the slab, he was terrified and quickly ran out of the room. News of what had happened spread like wildfire throughout the hospital, and when Alim's wife saw him. she fainted. Alim refused to leave the hospital until he was baptized in the chapel adjacent to the hospital. At the first opportunity he told all my family that I was right about what I said about Jesus, and that they must change their attitude towards me, which they did. From that time on Alim was a faithful witness to Jesus until his sudden death seven years later. So, I am now reconciled with all my family, and when I go back to Pakistan I always receive a warm welcome, and they even ask me to pray for them in times of difficulty"

Background to this story: Gulshan was a devout Muslim who had been crippled since birth, I believe. She had been to Mecca and even to Mohammad's tomb to seek healing, as her family believed in miracles. However, she remained a cripple. One day, while reading the Koran, she read about Jesus who healed people. She then started to pray for healing from him. She prayed whenever she could, every day for 3 years. Then she asked Jesus quite frankly why he had not healed her. Jesus then came with the 12 disciples and appeared to her in her bedroom. He healed her. He told her what to do and she later became a Christian.

Do Mormons have any other visions apart from JS's to support their claims?

I want to also ask you this Norman: If I was to enter Heaven, would I find a BoM there?

God bless.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he did" (John 8:56). This implies that Jesus had explained to Abraham his plan before it happened. We can also make an assumption based on this: that Jesus shared his future plan with all those he counted righteous who had passed away, before he died and rose again. Therefore everyone in Heaven would have knowledge of how they made it there.

Well, better that they have the knowledge than not. Mormons see God as giving everyone the opportunity to actually hear Jesus' gospel, understand it, and either accept or reject it. The Bible tells us that we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. We don't believe that God would waive that rule where the majority of mankind was concerned. Of course it would be easy for someone to believe in Christ once he was back in Heaven. There's an significant difference between "Here's how you got back," and "Here's how you can get back."

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Well, better that they have the knowledge than not. Mormons see God as giving everyone the opportunity to actually hear Jesus' gospel, understand it, and either accept or reject it. The Bible tells us that we must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. We don't believe that God would waive that rule where the majority of mankind was concerned. Of course it would be easy for someone to believe in Christ once he was back in Heaven. There's an significant difference between "Here's how you got back," and "Here's how you can get back."

Katzpur: I've just sent a story to Norm (above), with questions. I hope that you can read it too and give some comments, if you have time.

I just went over to the "Ye are gods" thread and noticed that Thanda and Norm have had no time to address some important questions raised last week. If you have time, could you have a look at what I wrote? Thanks

I have another question about the pre-existence. Surely, if it was true, everyone would have some innate knowledge of this, that we had been in Heaven before. It sounds like, from what you are saying, is that many who were in the pre-existence before (because you said everyone right?) don't make it back. If you look at the world population in comparison to how many Mormons there are, there are far less than 1% of humans making it back to Heaven. Therefore, in my opinion, it would have been better for everyone to have stayed in the pre-existence, than to come to Earth and have the chance of losing Heaven. How could God let all those "saved" spirits go, knowing less than 99% of them will make it back. I can picture it and the thought of it makes me want to cry.

God bless.