AZ Lawmaker proposes bill to make Pledge of Allegiance mandatory in schools

[Shadow Wolf]

Same reason we don't pledge to a Lakhota flag. They lost the battle for their lands and way of life. Are you serious about confederate flags? Please say you're really old.

That is how many Southerners actually view it. War of Northern Aggression, Southern way of life, state's rights, it's rather common.

 

[Stevicus]

Does it still include one nation under god?

Yes, it still has that part.

This should be another good reason for people to get out and vote if this is the direction the conservative agenda is headed.

I've been in Arizona for over 40 years, and I'll admit that we do have quite a number of ultra-conservative people like that. Some of them made Barry Goldwater seem like a moderate.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

What I mean by that is pretty much no one considered the CSA as being formally separate from the USA. Even to the federal government, the Uncle Sam didn't even formally renounce and kick out those who declared succession. And he was generous enough to not press charges of treason as many would have done.

You use the general term "Uncle Sam", and I can understand why. It's not as easy when you need to identify the human players. Who is 'uncle sam' in your statement?

Is it Lincoln? But he was killed quite early on. Is it the Vice President, now President Johnson? But his views of reconstruction were opposed by many.

Is it Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner who were appointed by Congress to undo any work that President Johnson did toward Reconstruction?

Here are some brief quotes of Thaddeus Stevens view of reconstruction made in his "Conquered Provinces" article. Taken from (Documentary History Of Reconstruction, Walter L. Fleming,McGraw-Hill Book Company,1966)

"Congress alone can do it...Congress must create States and declare when they are entitled to be represented." p.(148)

"It is obvious from all this that the first duty of congress is to pass a law declaring the condition of these outside or defunct States, and providing proper civil governments for them. " p.(148)

"They ought never to be recognized as capable of acting in the Union, or of being counted as valid States, until the Constitution shall have been so amended as to make it what its framers intended; and so as to secure perpetual ascendency to the party of the Union; and so as to render our republican Government firm and stable forever." (p. 148)

From same source as above: Here is Charles Sumner's view of reconstruction also known as the "State Suicide Theory". In it he gives 9 resolves. This is a quote from the first.

"Resolved, That any vote of secession or other act by which any State may undertake to put an end to the supremacy of the Constitution within it's territory is inoperative and void against the Constitution, and when sustained by force it becomes a practical abdication by the State of all rights under the Constitution, while the treason which it involves still further works an instant forfeiture of all those functions and powers essential to the continued existance of the State as a body politic, so that from that time forward the territory falls under the exclusive jursdiction of Congress as other territory, and the state being according to the language of the law, felo-de-se, ceases to exist." p.(144)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

What I mean by that is pretty much no one considered the CSA as being formally separate from the USA. Even to the federal government, the Uncle Sam didn't even formally renounce and kick out those who declared succession. And he was generous enough to not press charges of treason as many would have done.

I noted that you did not respond on what I said concerning the facade of the 'Emancipation Proclamation'. Do you disagree with what I said? Or do you agree but would rather remain in the smoke.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

@Shadow Wolf

June 13, 1866, Congress pased the Fourteenth Amendment. The amendment was sent to the states for legaslative approval. All Southern States except for Tennessee, refused to ratify. This would mean the amendment wouldn't make it.

No problem. Two days before it adjourned, Congress passed a Reconstruction Act.

From: (States Rights And The Union, Forrest McDonald, Universtiy Press Of Kansas, 2000) "The Reconstruction Act, as amended, began by declaring that 'no legal state governments' existed in the ten rebel states that had refused to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment. It divided the South into five military districts and replaced the existing non-governments by martial law. " p. (213)

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[wandering peacefully]

That is how many Southerners actually view it. War of Northern Aggression, Southern way of life, state's rights, it's rather common.

Yes, unfortunately it is. But for how many more generations? It's got to die out eventually one would imagine.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Yes, it still has that part.



I've been in Arizona for over 40 years, and I'll admit that we do have quite a number of ultra-conservative people like that. Some of them made Barry Goldwater seem like a moderate.

I was really shocked when our state voted for the orange one. I walked through the local grocery store just wondering which ones they were and how I could have not realized they were everywhere around me. It really opened my eyes and made me a little sad.
I sure wouldn't want to go too far left either but the moderates on both sides seem to have fled the country. We need a good president that is for trying to help everyone in the country to live a fair life. Fat chance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's got to die out eventually one would imagine.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's been said since the end of the Civil War. However, several civil war veterans did live until the mid 20th century (a few lived though WWII), so it may be more able to die off than it has before. But I doubt it's anytime soon.

 

[Shad]

Easy: The Union had already freed their slaves, making the Emancipation Proclamation sort of a token gesture, but also crucially important because the South would not give up slavery so when Uncle Sam welcomed back the prodigal children he never disowned there had to be something to ensure there would be no more slaves.

W. Virginia, Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware were slave-holding Union states which the EP didn't apply. Maryland didn't abolish slavery until 64. Missouri is 65. WV in 65. Delaware and Kentucky due to 14A in 65. Your view of history is incorrect.