Attack of the She-Bears...

[Father Heathen]

The God we are talking about is the same who was tortured and executed for the sins of the world, including littering.

But besides that, are you saying that taunting God is no worse than littering? Seriously, you've got explain that one! If you can show that, then you may have a case that His actions in this and other situations were excessive and unjust.

Whenever His reputation is smeared, He defends it. Otherwise, no one would turn to what they consider to be a worthless God and be saved. If God is the King of the universe, wouldn't defaming His name be tantamount to treason (punishable by death in many places, including Heaven)?

Here in the good ol' U.S of A., we are used to insulting our leaders--we call it politics. We have no experience with revering a Monarch. The worst that can happen here is a lawsuit for slander, which hardly ever happens, so we slander with impunity. Is our set of rules then, more "enlightened" than the rules God plays by?

What if the penalty for slander, gossip, lies, etc., really is death?

Surely the things I've said in this thread alone would've earned me a ravaging by bears by now. But really, wouldn't god be above having his ego bruised by mere mortals?
Doesn't a violent, knee-jerk reaction indicate an emotional weakness? Wouldn't god transcend all of that and have the fortitude, restraint, and discipline to weather the mere words of mortals which would be so far beneath him? If a little toddler waddled up to you and called you a poo-poo head, would you kick him in the throat and stomp on his head for his insolence?

Perhaps god could do some positive demonstrations like cure the sick or feed the hungry if he wants to set an example. Anybody can maim and murder.

 

[inquirer_Jn1717]

Surely the things I've said in this thread alone would've earned me a ravaging by bears by now.

Well, yes. We both deserve the same, I am not innocent of anything. Welcome to the Blasphemer Club.

But really, wouldn't god be above having his ego bruised by mere mortals?

I have already explained what is at stake when God defends His reputation...

Doesn't a violent, knee-jerk reaction indicate an emotional weakness?

You and I, and millions of other Blasphemers are still here aren't we? If we measure by body bags (or the lack thereof), then God has demonstrated extreme fortitude and patience.

Wouldn't god transcend all of that and have the fortitude, restraint, and discipline to weather the mere words of mortals which would be so far beneath him?

And effectively leave them(us) in the dark by his silence, letting the population of Bethel (or the world) carry on with their lives under the delusion that YHWH has no real power?

If a little toddler waddled up to you and called you a poo-poo head, would you kick him in the throat and stomp on his head for his insolence?

Are you a waddling toddler? Am I? Then what are we doing here!? No, perhaps our intelligence is like a snail compared to His, but when it comes to morality we are accountable. We are described as the "enemies" of God not merely "misguided" or "immature" little ones who only need a push in the right direction. God does push, but we push back.

Perhaps god could do some positive demonstrations like cure the sick or feed the hungry if he wants to set an example. Anybody can maim and murder.

He employed the first method many times: they said the Devil did it. And yes, anybody can slaughter teen-agers, but God "has no pleasure in the death of the wicked," and would rather not have to.

So God uses both Positive and Negative examples to show Himself to us and defend His reputation. Can you make the case that if there is a God who gives life, He does not also have the right to both preserve it or destroy and punish it as He sees fit?

 

[emiliano]

So... even though violently killing children is deeply immoral generally by any measure that we have, it's actually moral in this case because we don't see the whole picture?[/QUOTE]

No really, but your opinions and counsels are flawed because you are not omniscient, believe me God know what works. Did it work? Now to the lads, where they good? What was the final result of God’s action? These lads were evil (lacking is goodness) they were corrupting the City, were they in need of correction? Is it moral not to correct evil?

If we knew what God knew, we'd see how ripping children limb from limb could be all for the best. Gotcha.

But you don’t know, you just counsel God on better way of handling evil, I can tell you that your slap on the wrist would have ended in the death of the man of God, God’s glory tarnished, and a continuation of the pagan human sacrifices in the high places.
Yes, that's precisely the problem with this kind of mythology. The message gets lost by distraction because of such exaggeration in the storytelling. It's often hard to distill the message from the mythological overhead.
But it is you guys that exaggerate and dramatise it, to us is simpler, It is God way of correcting evil (lack of goodness) and protecting His servant.
That's not the first lesson that comes to mind for me when I read the story, but I suppose I can see how you can get that out of it.
That’s right to you, what are the consequences of this?

To me, what I see as the unnecessary brutality of the story somewhat negates the idea that the perpretrator of it might be righteous... however, this isn't the only story I have issues with in this regard. For example, I have similar difficulty trying to fathom how a righteous God could kill all the first-born sons of Egypt.

And again you got your foot on it, :slap: unnecessary? The City received correction, became a better City, their young became respectful lads and the prophet continued his mission, if you have other chips on your shoulder start a thread on it (I may participate)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No really, but your opinions and counsels are flawed because you are not omniscient, believe me God know what works. Did it work? Now to the lads, where they good? What was the final result of God’s action? These lads were evil (lacking is goodness) they were corrupting the City, were they in need of correction? Is it moral not to correct evil?

It is not moral to inflict unnecessary and avoidable suffering. An omnipotent God would be capable of preventing any human action by an infinite number of ways. An omnipotent God would be literally perfectly capable of avoiding all suffering when making His will be done.

If in God, all things are possible, then so is prevention of taunting without bloodshed. Therefore, if we're going to take it literally, we must conclude that the brutality in the story wasn't simply to stop the boys, but was a deliberate decision of God that was made on the merits of that brutality by itself, separate from stopping them from taunting Elisha or not.

But you don’t know, you just counsel God on better way of handling evil, I can tell you that your slap on the wrist would have ended in the death of the man of God, God’s glory tarnished, and a continuation of the pagan human sacrifices in the high places.

Hang on: are you saying that God was incapable of stopping the boys in a way that didn't involve their bloody death? I thought your God was omnipotent.

 

[emiliano]

Father heathen,

God, being perfect and good, would embody and serve as an example of the very values he is supposed to represent and expects of righteous men.

What? What kind of God have to do all this things? Do you understand what a commandment is? God is absolutely Sovereign, He command, He says and is done.

You say that being god he can do as he wishes and thus everything he does is good by default, but it is principles and not power that should be exalted as noble and honorable.

Oh God! Another one, what do you know about God’s principles and power? I thought that you believe that there is no God, what’s up? Is there God or there is no God?

The biblical portrayal is one of a petty infantile tyrant with emotional weaknesses who acts irrationally and inefficiently. Luckily though, we can rest assured that the savage fables of bronze age goat herders bares no reflection on any real god, if such a thing existed.

:sw:Here we go again, you just don’t understand you are inventing yourself a God with all these attributes and then go out to criticize it and frankly is going to take you nowhere, this one really does not exist, mine does.

How would you feel if one day, on a whim, god decided to make your family catch ablaze and die a slow, screaming death, just because you decided to wear mixed fabrics, or stuffed your face with shrimp? Would you praise Jeebus, glory halleluiah?

Impossible buddy boy, God protect us, that is what the narrative is about. The fact that you don’t understand it does not affect us in the least.

And how come back in bible times God wouldn't hesitate to kill people and/or their children, innocent or not, for some petty, ridiculous reason at the drop of the hat.

At the drop of a hat? Where the Egyptians innocent? Was it petty action that Egyptians were killing the Hebrew males at birth? Enslaving them and preventing them fom going to the desert to worship

But today you can curse and blasphemy god and other extreme offenses to your hearts content and now it seems God lacks the spine to stand up to the offenders and smite them. No death of firstborns.

What are you talking about? You will die, won’t you? You will find out, don’t worry!

No locust. No rivers running red with blood. No reducing cities to pillars of salt. What happened? Did he lose his touch?

You will see, it will be worst than this, actually today you are one day closer to finding out:knight:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

At the drop of a hat? Where the Egyptians innocent?

The babies would have been, IMO.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well, yes. We both deserve the same, I am not innocent of anything. Welcome to the Blasphemer Club.

What about "an eye for an eye"? Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime, and not exceed it a billion fold? I could see god dropping a banana pill and making us slip on it for saying mean words, but to make us die slow painful deaths? Judging from God's reaction, does that imply mere man can hurt and damage god? You and I, in order to deserve a bear mauling, would have to inflict a such brutal death on others ourselves.

 

[Father Heathen]

The babies would have been, IMO.

Yeah, murdering innocent children makes it hard to distinguish God from Satan.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh God! Another one, what do you know about God’s principles and power? I thought that you believe that there is no God, what’s up? Is there God or there is no God? Here we go again, you just don’t understand you are inventing yourself a God with all these attributes and then go out to criticize it and frankly is going to take you nowhere, this one really does not exist, mine does.

No, I don't believe in god. I have no problem with the concept, however. And taking into considering what an all-knowing, all-powerful, just, merciful and loving god would be actually like using logical deduction, I would think any real god would be insulted by the silly biblical portrayal that makes him look like a 2 dimensional cartoon character. Do you really think the primitive bronze age goat herders who penned the bible have a patent and monopoly on god? Any schmuck can put words in gods mouth and attribute wacky fables to him.

What are you talking about? You will die, won’t you? You will find out, don’t worry! You will see, it will be worst than this, actually today you are one day closer to finding out

I bet the thought makes you all sweaty and tremble in anticipation.

 

[emiliano]

The babies would have been, IMO.

Penguin, here we go again this is the destruction of the first born. Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. And I will execute judgments against all the gods of Egypt. I am Jehovah.
Now the first born was the heir of his father, right? And Pharaoh was a god of the Egyptian, even the infant heir was a god and God executed judgement against them, the lesser first born were the master of the Hebrews and all their first born were going to become master, remember that the Hebrews were not slaves when they came, they where given land and they have Joseph as their king, by the time that God sent Moses to the Egyptian rulers the situation was quite different, the Hebrew were considered as propriety by the Egyptian, propriety that was going to be inherited by the first born, God in his omniscience new what kind of masters and Kings these first born were going to turn out to be. So again the measure was just right.

 

[Father Heathen]

Penguin, here we go again this is the destruction of the first born. Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. And I will execute judgments against all the gods of Egypt. I am Jehovah.
Now the first born was the heir of his father, right? And Pharaoh was a god of the Egyptian, even the infant heir was a god and God executed judgement against them, the lesser first born were the master of the Hebrews and all their first born were going to become master, remember that the Hebrews were not slaves when they came, they where given land and they have Joseph as their king, by the time that God sent Moses to the Egyptian rulers the situation was quite different, the Hebrew were considered as propriety by the Egyptian, propriety that was going to be inherited by the first born, God in his omniscience new what kind of masters and Kings these first born were going to turn out to be. So again the measure was just right.

And murdering innocent babies was the only option? You make god sound like a lazy oaf.

 

[emiliano]

And murdering innocent babies was the only option? You make god sound like a lazy oaf.

I don’t know if that was the only option, I am not omniscient, all I know is that it worked, The Egyptians even restore what they took from the Hebrews, How can you say “You make god sound like a lazy oaf”? The message “let my people Go that they may have a feat” “so that they may serve Me in the wilderness”. Sent swarms of flies, the rod that became a snake, turning the water into blood, the frogs, the lice etc. Were the Egyptian rulers of that time in need of correction? Did they change?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hebrew were considered as propriety by the Egyptian, propriety that was going to be inherited by the first born,

So... their parents were evil, which made them heirs to evil and therefore worthy of killing themselves?

God in his omniscience new what kind of masters and Kings these first born were going to turn out to be.

And God, in his lack of omnipotence, was incapable of turning these children from their path to evil without killing them, apparently.

So again the measure was just right.

No, it wasn't. Punishing one person for the crimes of another is never just or right.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don’t know if that was the only option, I am not omniscient, all I know is that it worked, The Egyptians even restore what they took from the Hebrews, How can you say “You make god sound like a lazy oaf”? The message “let my people Go that they may have a feat” “so that they may serve Me in the wilderness”. Sent swarms of flies, the rod that became a snake, turning the water into blood, the frogs, the lice etc. Were the Egyptian rulers of that time in need of correction? Did they change?

Why not simply kill the ones actually responsible (and skip the parlor tricks) instead of taking his childish anger out on innocent, helpless babies who didn't deserve to die? See, even if I believed in a god I still wouldn't believe in the bible because it's so nonsensical and poorly written. It reads like a poorly penned revenge fantasy with the Hebrews projecting their own emotions and ego and calling it "god". The "god" of the bible was make in the image of these bronze age goat herders, now the other way around.

 

[emiliano]

Penguiedn

So... their parents were evil, which made them heirs to evil and therefore worthy of killing themselves?

They were potential evil rulers, and of notice is the Pharaoh was a first born (he was the previous king’s heir) but he didn’t die, we are not told of what kind of King this Pharaoh was after the correction, my guess is that he was a pretty good one, God turned evil into good.

And God, in his lack of omnipotence, was incapable of turning these children from their path to evil without killing them, apparently.

Well God know exactly how much power was necessary because of His omniscience, did this measure turned their evil (the Egyptian’s) into good?

No, it wasn't. Punishing one person for the crimes of another is never just or right.

The answer to this is in God’s omniscience, God knew what kind of ruler they were going to turn out to be.

 

[emiliano]

Why not simply kill the ones actually responsible (and skip the parlor tricks) instead of taking his childish anger out on innocent, helpless babies who didn't deserve to die? See, even if I believed in a god I still wouldn't believe in the bible because it's so nonsensical and poorly written. It reads like a poorly penned revenge fantasy with the Hebrews projecting their own emotions and ego and calling it "god". The "god" of the bible was make in the image of these bronze age goat herders, now the other way around.

Another councillor, God does not need your wisdom, He is an Almighty omniscient God, I have encounter believer that think like you do, I God does not get your approval. What happens? As I told you before, you will find out! God is not a candidate to the office of God, he is God where you aprove of not.:shout

 

[Father Heathen]

Another councillor, God does not need your wisdom, He is an Almighty omniscient God, I have encounter believer that think like you do, I God does not get your approval. What happens? As I told you before, you will find out! God is not a candidate to the office of God, he is God where you aprove of not.:shout

I'm pretty positive that any God that may be out there would agree with my assessment of the bible; it nothing more than ancient, primitive men who tried to stuff words in god's mouth. And I'm sure he too would find the silly invention of "hell" to be nothing more than the sadomasochistic revenge fantasy of mere men. I'm sure you close your eyes and envision me engulfed in flames, screaming in agony for eternity, and the thought gets you all sweaty and excited, doesn't it?

 

[emiliano]

I'm pretty positive that any God that may be out there would agree with my assessment of the bible; it nothing more than ancient, primitive men who tried to stuff words in god's mouth. And I'm sure he too would find the silly invention of "hell" to be nothing more than the sadomasochistic revenge fantasy of mere men. I'm sure you close your eyes and envision me engulfed in flames, screaming in agony for eternity, and the thought gets you all sweaty and excited, doesn't it?

I have nothing but pity for the lost, in fact a pray for them, all I know that I don’t want anybody to miss out on an entrance to God’s Kingdom, I pray for my love one, I ask God to have mercy on all. But It is up to you to choose where to spend eternity?
I cannot believe and repent for others it is up to them.

 

[Father Heathen]

But It is up to you to choose where to spend eternity?

How can you be so certain we won't both find ourselves standing before a really ****** off Zeus or Thor when we die?

 

[emiliano]

How can you be so certain we won't both find ourselves standing before a really ****** off Zeus or Thor when we die?

We will find out, I have not doubts whatsoever.