Atheists - What is the meaning of life?

[finalfrogo]

How can I know, I didn't create the stone, and you haven't told me who did, when or where, or how.

FGS

I didn't create the stone, but I'm throwing it at a window. Can we deduce from this information that the purpose of the stone, in this instance, is to be thrown?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

With God and the law, is this not what the world is like?

Sometimes, yes. However, at least with God and the law, we have the ability to point out what is wrong with the situation and/or how to fix it.

Naturally. The absence of murder enhances survival. Social disharmony is also detrimental to survival, and thus theft, rape, and other "crimes" are included.

They're certainly not detrimental to my survival if I get away with them. Why would I care what anyone else thinks or what anyone else wants? I do what I want to do.

FGS

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I didn't create the stone, but I'm throwing it at a window. Can we deduce from this information that the purpose of the stone, in this instance, is to be thrown?

For the sake of argument, let's say yes. What's your point?

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

And law is also created making it fully acceptable to kill others, or to watch others be killed. So who is right?

Both. People have diverse personal interests, and they therefore have diverse forms of law.

The first law is created by people who don't like watching others be killed.

The second law is created by people who like watching people being killed.

Both are valid.

Why is your morality superior to anyone else's, Hitler's for example?

FGS

I didn't say it was.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Both. People have diverse personal interests, and they therefore have diverse forms of law.

The first law is created by people who don't like watching others be killed.

The second law is created by people who like watching people being killed.

Both are valid.




I didn't say it was.

So then Hitler was totally justified in killing millions of people, and his morality was totally valid. As long as we've got that straight.

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

For the sake of argument, let's say yes. What's your point?

FGS

It reflects my life. I choose how to use it, just as I choose how to use the stone.

How I use the stone defines its purpose. How I use my life defines its purpose.

 

[finalfrogo]

So then Hitler was totally justified in killing millions of people, and his morality was totally valid. As long as we've got that straight.

FGS

I don't like it, but its valid.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

It reflects my life. I choose how to use it, just as I choose how to use the stone.

How I use the stone defines its purpose. How I use my life defines its purpose.

Except that interestingly, you proved my point. The intentionally created stone, does in fact have a purpose, which you readily agreed with. All intentionally created things have a purpose, once again. Just because you happened to catch on to the purpose of the stone and fulfilled the pre-determined purpose doesn't mean that you yourself created the purpose.

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

So then Hitler was totally justified in killing millions of people, and his morality was totally valid. As long as we've got that straight.

FGS

The point is that it is a morality. Not one I agree with, but it exists as a morality.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I don't like it, but its valid.

And again, we see my point prevailing here. Atheists with subjective, relativistic morality have no logical reason to stand up to what is wrong. They have no purpose for their life other than what they invent in their minds, and they can't reasonably defend right and wrong. Well, at least the case is finally closed.

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

Except that interestingly, you proved my point. The intentionally created stone, does in fact have a purpose, which you readily agreed with. All intentionally created things have a purpose, once again. Just because you happened to catch on to the purpose of the stone and fulfilled the pre-determined purpose doesn't mean that you yourself created the purpose.

FGS

But "to be thrown" may have not been its designated purpose.

An inventor invents the calculator to calculate. I throw it at somebody. During the throw, what is its purpose?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

But "to be thrown" may have not been its designated purpose.

Excep that we said for the sake of argument that that was its purpose.

An inventor invents the calculator to calculate. I throw it at somebody. During the throw, what is its purpose?

It's purpose is still to calculate, it's simply not fulfilling its purpose at that moment. But again, none of this disproves the assertion that all intentionally created things have a purpose.

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

Sometimes, yes. However, at least with God and the law, we have the ability to point out what is wrong with the situation and/or how to fix it.

They're certainly not detrimental to my survival if I get away with them. Why would I care what anyone else thinks or what anyone else wants? I do what I want to do.

FGS

I was taking an evolutionary perspective. A social group will shun a murderer because the lack of murder is essential to the survival of the individual members of the group

 

[JerryL]

I though that's what I had been doing, lol. When something is intentionally created, one can reasonably say that it is for a purpose, yes? That purpose is given by the creator when he does the creating. If the created thing suddenly went out on a limb and did things that it was not designed to do, you can hopefully see how this would create problems (think Frankenstein or something similar). Thus, our purpose as created beings has been given to us by our Creator. Since the Creator had no beginning and thuse no creator of Himself, but rather He gives creation and purpose to all things, He reasonably gives purpose to Himself.

Purpose must be given at creation because created things performing outside their purpose would create problems.

So if I created a Nanobot to kill all human life, but it ended up only destroying cancer cells and eliminating cancer on Earth, that would be creating problems?

Even if I assume your assertion that "going outside your purpose creates problems", it does nothing to establish that my purpose must be set by someone elses, nor that God can set his own purposes.

A dolphin is a lower lifeform than a human; God is a higher lifeform....think of a known lifeform higher than a human, and you may be on to something...maybe.

Again you base your support on an unsupported assertion. I don't agree that a dolphin is a "lower lifeform", nor do I see any support for your claim that "higher than human" can make it's own purpose and "lower than human" cannot.

I think I've explained myself pretty well if you go back and look.

I've read your responses. You've supported assertions with more assertions.

Again, I thought I had been. An objective purpose is superior to a subjective one created in one's own mind, because it is objective. It has validity outside of your own self. This seems so self-evident I'm not even sure what more needs to be explained.

I have all sorts of problems with this, but the biggest is that it's not on topic. You've asserted that God can create his own purpose, but that people cannot. I've seen no support for this claim that was not simply other unsupported assertion.

See above explanations, as well as the ones I've been providing throughout the thread.

Really you have not. You haven't even supported an objective claim within your assertions, much less within the common framework neccessairy for a discussion.

"My prupose is to paint desks" is an objective claim whether it's a decision I have made or one which God has made or one which my table-lamp has made. It may be false, but it's objective.

If I wanted to, if I thought it would make me feel better, (and if there was no God), then yes, I just might. What do you think goes through the minds of murderers in the act?

Since there is no one who believes in a universe without reprocussions, that's a bad hypothetical.

Name something that is intentionally created that has no purpose. (and please don't say "humans" or "the universe", because that's the bone of contention here)

I'm with you here. I think that all deliberate act has a reason (which could be called a purpose), so if something was deliberately created then there definitionally was purpose in its creation.

As a kid once, I dug a hole. The hole had no purpose, though my digging it had a purpose (to fulfill my desire to dig a hole).

Cool....then I might kill you...and we'd probably get people to join both of our sides, and we'd all fight each other...and then we'd have war! Yay for doing whatever you feel like!

and I might not like that state of affairs... so I guess I don't want to kill people because I don't want to be in the middle of a war.

Neat how that all worked out without God.

And as I pointed out, that philosophy will lead to war and anarchy...not a good plan.

Because you don't want anarchy... and you didn't even need Deific morality.

LOL...so again, you have no way of defining "good" or "bad". You can't call what Hitler did wrong in any objective way. It's just wrong because you say so. That makes zero sense.

There is no objective definition of "good" or "bad", ergo what Hitler did was objectively neither. Subjectively I find i bad.

However, I am simply questioning the atheistic reasoning as to why doing something immoral would be wrong, namely because they can't define what morality is for anyone but themselves.

But you answered it... because we don't want to. One reason to not want to was given above.

And again, we see my point prevailing here. Atheists with subjective, relativistic morality have no logical reason to stand up to what is wrong.

Because I want to.

They have no purpose for their life other than what they invent in their minds, and they can't reasonably defend right and wrong.

I can to the same degree you can. You just say "cause God said so" before stating your position.

 

[finalfrogo]

It's purpose is still to calculate, it's simply not fulfilling its purpose at that moment. But again, none of this disproves the assertion that all intentionally created things have a purpose.

FGS

Of course INTENTIONALLY created things have a purpose. And I would disagree with you about the calculator's purpose. Since I'm using it to harm somebody, its purpose is to harm.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I was taking an evolutionary perspective. A social group will shun a murderer because the lack of murder is essential to the survival of the individual members of the group

If surviving is our only purpose in life, we are bound to fail miserably at some point.

FGS

 

[Purple Thyme]

why don't you think an atheist can'thave meaning in life? I'm trying to get Majikthise off the couch to join in but no luck. I'm so sick of the thought that if you don't believe in GOd, your life must be empty. How foolish.

 

[JerryL]

If surviving is our only purpose in life, we are bound to fail miserably at some point.

Did someone claim that was our purpose?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Of course INTENTIONALLY created things have a purpose.

Then why did you disagree with me all this time? Go back and look, we were always talking about the purpose of intentionally created things.

And I would disagree with you about the calculator's purpose. Since I'm using it to harm somebody, its purpose is to harm

That's not it's INTENDED purpose, however. You have morphed its purpose to do something that it was not designed to do, which we so often do with our own lives over against the purpose God has for us.

FGS

 

[finalfrogo]

And again, we see my point prevailing here. Atheists with subjective, relativistic morality have no logical reason to stand up to what is wrong. They have no purpose for their life other than what they invent in their minds, and they can't reasonably defend right and wrong. Well, at least the case is finally closed.

FGS

Bogus. There is a logical reason to stand up for what they see as wrong: because they don't like watching what they consider "wrong" happen.

They have no purpose for their life other than what they invent in their minds, and they can't reasonably defend right and wrong.

An theists have no purpose for their life other than what their invented religions claim.

An no atheists have defended morals? Now that's a startling generalization.