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Atheists and Morals

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
First, a story.

As soon as I popped out of my mother's womb, I was declared and anointed a Roman Catholic despite not knowing my A-B-Cs or 1-2-3s. My beliefs were already chosen for me before I could form a coherent sentence. I was sent away to Catholic schools when I was of age and I was carted off to mass.

To be honest, it didn't mean all that much to me. I just took God's existence as a given because that's what my parents, my teachers, and priest kept telling me. I was told constantly that I am a sinner and that I should repent. I recall being forced to go to Confession at school (there was a church nearby and the priest would come over to do this once a year). I tried to look back and recall my sins at that time, but they were always minor and without consequence. The kids would always say the same thing when asked what our sins were: "Lying, cheating, stealing". We were told to screw off and go pray 10 Our Fathers and to try not to do it again.

Sure, I was not a perfect child by any means, but I certainly didn't think I deserved eternal fire for calling my sister chubby on occasion and never thought this would warrant divine forgiveness. When I started high school, I became a fervent Protestant, but not the proselytizing kind. I wanted to take Jesus' words to heart and try to emulate his life. I apologized to everyone I remembered I had wronged in the past. I was always kind to people and generous. I forgave and I sought forgiveness for past transgressions. I got a euphoric high from doing good and being a good person. Not a perfect person, but a good person. Seeing others happy, in turn, made me happy.

Some time later, when I gradually became an atheist, I found out that I could still get that high from being a good person in general. When confronted with theists who looked down their noses at me and condescendingly and arrogantly declared themselves to be more moral than I, I recalled the justifications for their morality.

While I was doing good for goodness' sake, they were doing good supposedly because some big bearded man in the sky would roast them forever if they didn't. I hear some people claim that this is a moral compass. I get my morals not from "divine law" nor from criminal law. If murder and rape were legalized tomorrow, I would still not murder and rape.

What guides me is a sense of duty and respect towards my fellow man. I do not need to be threatened to be good. I am consciously aware that society cannot function if I violate the fundamental rights and dignities of others. Therefore, I do my best to respect others.

Am I perfect? No. I have flaws, just as all of us have flaws that make us who we are.

Do I lie? Yes. I lie to get myself out of trouble, I lie to comfort others, I lie to avoid embarrassment. I try to be honest and I hope that my sense of duty is strong enough to accept responsibility and face the consequences for my actions.

Am I hurtful? Sometimes. Almost never intentionally, and when it is intentional, only in situations where my emotions override my ability to think clearly.

I am by no means perfect, but I have a sense of honour, loyalty to my friends, respect for those who reciprocate it, and the ability to admit wrongdoing. I'm not a saint, but I'm a generally good person. Most people are generally good people and shouldn't feel guilty for being human.

If the only thing holding you back from going on a killing spree is your delusion that there's some god out there who will roast you forever if you do it, I am honestly scared of you. If you cannot refrain from killing simply because you are fearful of punishment, you do not have a moral compass. You have a gun to your head.

And should I ever lapse from my ideals and commit a transgression towards another, I will be sure to ask that person for forgiveness and to make reparations to them personally. I do not need to mutter to a middleman to settle the score. Guess what? The person I just transgressed doesn't give two craps if I clasped my hands together and muttered to myself in private.

We are all generally good people. Our moral compass comes not from "god" nor from law, but from within.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I think morality is completely irrelevant to everything we need, because things we need will be considered bad to another somewhere at sometime.
 
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Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
I think morality is completely irrelevant to everything we need, because things we need will be considered bad to another somewhere at sometime.

I disagree. I don't believe respect, dignity, and freedom are guiding principles that will one day be looked upon with contempt.

When speaking of individual actions, there is a difference. The slavery of yesteryear is almost eradicated completely from the global except for small pockets of impoverished areas. The imperialism of yesteryear is considered cruel and barbaric and would provoke an international outcry if done on even a quarter of the scale it of which it was once practised. Paedophilia, rape, murder, genocide, torture, and other cruel actions have been, through time immemorial, admonished.

These actions would not occur in the world, or at least be far less frequent, if we respected each other, treated each other with dignity, and allowed each other the freedom to pursue our own happiness within reason. Therefore, I do consider morality to be relevant and important. If not on a macro scale, then most certainly in my own personal life.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Everything is subjective, that is no good reason to reject it.

Not everything is subjective.

But, yes you have to reject subjective things, in order to visualize how reality is without bias or opinions. We cannot choose which subjective opinion or perspective is better than the other subjective opinion.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member

Is a mountain a rock?

Is a planet a rock? Or a moon?

Is a grain of sand a rock?

If you were to separate a rock into it's indiviual atoms would they all be rocks?

A rock is only a rock when it is perceived as a rock. In a different context it takes on a different meaning. That would make it subjective.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Is a mountain a rock?

Is a planet a rock? Or a moon?

Is a grain of sand a rock?

If you were to separate a rock into it's indiviual atoms would they all be rocks?

A rock is only a rock when it is perceived as a rock. In a different context it takes on a different meaning. That would make it subjective.

It doesn't matter, if I lift up a rock and describe it objectively, I'd just have to remove all subjectivity from it (all emotions, opinions, etc). It will turn into me saying "This is a rock."
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter, if I lift up a rock and describe it objectively, I'd just have to remove all subjectivity from it (all emotions, opinions, etc). It will turn into me saying "This is a rock."

Would it be the same as how a two dimensional being describes it?

What about one dimensional beings, how would they describe it? I'm willing to bet it would be vastly different from your description.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Would it be the same as how a two dimensional being describes it?

What about one dimensional beings, how would they describe it? I'm willing to bet it would be vastly different from your description.

They'd probably perceive it differently, but objectively, it's still a rock.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't a rock objectively.
If what you call a rock is interpreted by someone else to be not a rock, then one or both of you is wrong, and it would be rather thick-headed of you to always assume it's the other person.

The only objective thing is math, ignoring number bases.
 
First, a story.

As soon as I popped out of my mother's womb, I was declared and anointed a Roman Catholic despite not knowing my A-B-Cs or 1-2-3s. My beliefs were already chosen for me before I could form a coherent sentence. I was sent away to Catholic schools when I was of age and I was carted off to mass.

To be honest, it didn't mean all that much to me. I just took God's existence as a given because that's what my parents, my teachers, and priest kept telling me. I was told constantly that I am a sinner and that I should repent. I recall being forced to go to Confession at school (there was a church nearby and the priest would come over to do this once a year). I tried to look back and recall my sins at that time, but they were always minor and without consequence. The kids would always say the same thing when asked what our sins were: "Lying, cheating, stealing". We were told to screw off and go pray 10 Our Fathers and to try not to do it again.

Sure, I was not a perfect child by any means, but I certainly didn't think I deserved eternal fire for calling my sister chubby on occasion and never thought this would warrant divine forgiveness. When I started high school, I became a fervent Protestant, but not the proselytizing kind. I wanted to take Jesus' words to heart and try to emulate his life. I apologized to everyone I remembered I had wronged in the past. I was always kind to people and generous. I forgave and I sought forgiveness for past transgressions. I got a euphoric high from doing good and being a good person. Not a perfect person, but a good person. Seeing others happy, in turn, made me happy.

Some time later, when I gradually became an atheist, I found out that I could still get that high from being a good person in general. When confronted with theists who looked down their noses at me and condescendingly and arrogantly declared themselves to be more moral than I, I recalled the justifications for their morality.

While I was doing good for goodness' sake, they were doing good supposedly because some big bearded man in the sky would roast them forever if they didn't. I hear some people claim that this is a moral compass. I get my morals not from "divine law" nor from criminal law. If murder and rape were legalized tomorrow, I would still not murder and rape.

What guides me is a sense of duty and respect towards my fellow man. I do not need to be threatened to be good. I am consciously aware that society cannot function if I violate the fundamental rights and dignities of others. Therefore, I do my best to respect others.

Am I perfect? No. I have flaws, just as all of us have flaws that make us who we are.

Do I lie? Yes. I lie to get myself out of trouble, I lie to comfort others, I lie to avoid embarrassment. I try to be honest and I hope that my sense of duty is strong enough to accept responsibility and face the consequences for my actions.

Am I hurtful? Sometimes. Almost never intentionally, and when it is intentional, only in situations where my emotions override my ability to think clearly.

I am by no means perfect, but I have a sense of honour, loyalty to my friends, respect for those who reciprocate it, and the ability to admit wrongdoing. I'm not a saint, but I'm a generally good person. Most people are generally good people and shouldn't feel guilty for being human.

If the only thing holding you back from going on a killing spree is your delusion that there's some god out there who will roast you forever if you do it, I am honestly scared of you. If you cannot refrain from killing simply because you are fearful of punishment, you do not have a moral compass. You have a gun to your head.

And should I ever lapse from my ideals and commit a transgression towards another, I will be sure to ask that person for forgiveness and to make reparations to them personally. I do not need to mutter to a middleman to settle the score. Guess what? The person I just transgressed doesn't give two craps if I clasped my hands together and muttered to myself in private.

We are all generally good people. Our moral compass comes not from "god" nor from law, but from within.

We all have flaws, and an atheist is not an exception. It seems, if we need not have flaws, then we don't need to say it. But, it seems, that an atheist feels about believing in atheism, like we do, when we think about ourselves. Religion is a community perhaps based on a common belief, and atheism I believe, has been called a religion, by a thinker. People practice common practices, so that there is no confusion, in interaction. It seems, community is a group of people who act in a similar manner. This can be true of atheist communities, also.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
If what you call a rock is interpreted by someone else to be not a rock, then one or both of you is wrong, and it would be rather thick-headed of you to always assume it's the other person.

The only objective thing is math, ignoring number bases.

Yeah, obviously the word rock is subjective, that's true, but what I meant is that it literally is what it is, and as you said, mathematically.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
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somethingNiftyhere

Squadoosh 1@ATime
I think the religious community implying that morality is something strictly bestowed by belief in God is a means of denouncing anyone who is not religious as being immoral. And as such it's a causative factor among their own to seek to convert as many people to their religion as possible, so as to make this a safer world for their kind.

When we review even in brief the history of Christianity for example, we quickly understand that that falsehood is savagely apparent given the death and mutilation of people and cultures that ensued in order to arrive at what is today's foremost religious population on earth. The Roman Catholic being the predominant faith in the Christian pantheon, if you will.

Morality is not universal. It's innate. And I think it's nurtured by one's family in their formative years so as to define what this world is about and how one is to take their inner wisdom and apply what speaks from that center, to what they encounter as the person grows up and into more of the world they're exposed to.
 
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