Artificial Wombs & You

[ppp]

Almost 40 years ago, one of my favorite sf writers, Lois McMaster Bujold, introduced me to the concept of the artificial womb, which she called, the uterine replicator. Not only to the concept of the device, but to it's impact on a society which, unto that point, was restricted to body births. Of course in her story, the artificial womb was a mature and tested piece of technology, which only cultural impact at the heart of discussion. In our world, in the here and now, it is new and human trials are on the horizon.

Do you have concerns?

• negative psychological impacts due to some unknown factor unique to humans
• baby is born with out a soul
• mother won't bond properly
• god hates artificial wombs
• Might make us less human
• ???

An artificial womb is an experimental medical device intended to provide a womblike environment for extremely premature infants. In most of the technologies, the infant would float in a clear “biobag,” surrounded by fluid. The idea is that preemies could spend a few weeks continuing to develop in this device after birth, so that “when they’re transitioned from the device, they’re more capable of surviving and having fewer complications with conventional treatment,” says George Mychaliska, a pediatric surgeon at the University of Michigan.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have no problem with it if it's to save the life of a child with severe medical complications, as in your example. But it must be kept in check and should not be normalized lest it make us less human and help lead to society becoming some sort of transhumanist dystopia. The idea of purposely "creating" a child in one is disturbing and smacks of eugenics. So there's all kinds of ethnical issues with this, aside from unknown and possibly extreme physical and psychological effects from that.

 

[ppp]

I have no problem with it if it's to save the life of a child with severe medical complications, as in your example. But it must be kept in check and should not be normalized lest it make us less human and help lead to society becoming some sort of transhumanist dystopia.

How would gestating a fetus in an artificial womb potentially make us less human?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How would gestating a fetus in an artificial womb potentially make us less human?

You're taking about replacing natural birth and natural gestation in one's mother's womb with artificial technology and making it obsolete. That would further alienate us from our bodies and the natural physical origin of us as individuals, causing major physical and psychological ramifications. It's essentially transhumanism and that's very worrying. Transhumanism is just eugenics for the digital age. But like I said, that would be if they were normalized and people used them to "create" babies. I don't see an ethical problem with using them to save premature babies, though.

 

[ppp]

You're taking about replacing natural birth and natural gestation in one's mother's womb with artificial technology and making it obsolete.

True. As long as by obsolete you do not mean forbidden.

That would further alienate us from our bodies and the natural physical origin of us as individuals, causing major physical and psychological ramifications.

You seem to be saying that if any given woman does not give birth to a child container her genetic material that she would be alienated from her body. That doesn't make sense to me. Am I misunderstanding?

Transhumanism is just eugenics for the digital age.

It's not. Hell, eugenics isn't even eugenics. But to the extent that eugenics is what we generally mean by the word, the eugenics movement is about intentionally creating genetic classes, accentuate the separation of the "races" and making a distinctly caste society. The eugenics movement specifically requires that people of all the targeted castes are modified without their consent or knowledge in order to meet the standards and goals of an oligarchy. Or dictator.

Transhumanism is about encouraging individual freak flags to fly. For each person to exercise their own agency in what ever modifications that they do or do not wish to have. Unlike eugenics, Transhumanism is aggressively individualistic and non-conformist. Probably anarcho-socialist, if I understand the term correctly.

I am not saying that transhumanism is a good idea. I am saying that the two philosophies are diametrically opposed and incompatible. One is not the other for any age.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I can see a medical value for premies and other health issues, but I wonder about the potential for application to mass production. I'm not sure if it is a worry for a species that already over-produces naturally, but something to consider.

 

[libre]

Almost 40 years ago, one of my favorite sf writers, Lois McMaster Bujold, introduced me to the concept of the artificial womb, which she called, the uterine replicator. Not only to the concept of the device, but to it's impact on a society which, unto that point, was restricted to body births. Of course in her story, the artificial womb was a mature and tested piece of technology, which only cultural impact at the heart of discussion. In our world, in the here and now, it is new and human trials are on the horizon.

Do you have concerns?

• negative psychological impacts due to some unknown factor unique to humans
• baby is born with out a soul
• mother won't bond properly
• god hates artificial wombs
• Might make us less human
• ???

Given that the tech was mature, tested and safe as in this story, I wouldn't see any ethical difference between this and using Infant formula.

 

[Eddi]

Reminds me of Huxley's Brave New World where babies are gestated on a production line, basically mass-produced Henry Ford style

And they were not raised in families they were raised in child farms

Not a pleasant vision of the future

 

[ppp]

I can see a medical value for premies and other health issues, but I wonder about the potential for application to mass production. I'm not sure if it is a worry for a species that already over-produces naturally, but something to consider.

With sufficient resources, it could certainly be a eugenicist wet dream.

 

[Eddi]

With sufficient resources, it could certainly be a eugenicist wet dream.

Yes, I for one would not want that technology to be developed

 

[ppp]

Yes, I for one would not want that technology to be developed

It could also virtually eradicate maternal mortality and maiming.

 

[Eddi]

It could also virtually eradicate maternal mortality and maiming.

It could but I wouldn't trust humankind to use such technology responsibly

I'm thinking of designer baby super soldiers, that type of thing

It would make it possible to manufacture humans, not a good thing IMO

 

[sun rise]

one of my favorite sf writers, Lois McMaster Bujold

She's one of my favorites as well. I've read just about every one of her books.

• baby is born with out a soul
• mother won't bond properly
• god hates artificial wombs
• Might make us less human

None of those.

One thing no one has mentioned is that such a device should end the abortion furor. From the woman's point of view, the fetus would be gone. From the anti-abortion perspective, the fetus would be saved.

 

[ppp]

It could but I wouldn't trust humankind to use such technology responsibly

I'm thinking of designer baby super soldiers, that type of thing

It would make it possible to manufacture humans, not a good thing IMO

I would prioritize the straightforward path to saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of actual humans asking to be saved, over the non-existent plan of a non-existent person to enact a evil overlord plot. Ya know?

 

[ppp]

She's one of my favorites as well. I've read just about every one of her books.

None of those.

One thing no one has mentioned is that such a device should end the abortion furor. From the woman's point of view, the fetus would be gone. From the anti-abortion perspective, the fetus would be saved.

I thought of that. I cannot help but wonder if Texas would force her to have the baby through the artificial womb and then charge her for the rest of her life for child support

 

[Eddi]

I would prioritize the straightforward path to saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of actual humans asking to be saved, over the non-existent plan of a non-existent person to enact a evil overlord plot. Ya know?

Well if humanity wants to take that path then fine

But we cannot be sure where exactly that path leads

So we should be cautious rather than overly optimistic

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It could also virtually eradicate maternal mortality and maiming.

Have we learned nothing from Logan's Run and the "Soldier" episode of Out Limits (1964)? Read with a little tongue in cheek, but also something worth considering.

 

[sun rise]

I thought of that. I cannot help but wonder if Texas would force her to have the baby through the artificial womb and then charge her for the rest of her life for child support

Intrusive big government is a real risk. There are too many that want to tell people what they can and can't do when it comes to personal choice.

 

[ppp]

Have we learned nothing from Logan's Run and the "Soldier" episode of Out Limits (1964)? Read with a little tongue in cheek, but also something worth considering.

I didnt know that there was such an episode. Is it any think like the movie Soldier 1998?

Can we actually learn anything from Logan's Run?

 

[ppp]

Have we learned nothing from Logan's Run and the "Soldier" episode of Out Limits (1964)? Read with a little tongue in cheek, but also something worth considering.

Wait! AI + Artificial wombs ==> The Matrix