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Are good and evil people innately different?

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
In an age where shallow and superficial criteria are used to divide people. I like to look for ways to unite people. It may be useful to considered ways to reduce the number of divides, to a much smaller set. Back in the 1970's when I was a teen, the divide was the summarized by the slogan, so not trust anyone over 30. This made two teams for everybody; male, female, black and white, all ethnicities, nerds and jocks, etc., were teamed up by age. Any household would have the same two teams; adults and children, that would compare notes with neighbors and friends. It was awesome with family and neighborly love allowing the experiment; black and white children; boys and girls, versus black and white parents.

I am not sure if this would work today since the family is more broken and there is less love and character development. Classically, this can also be done with the divide of good and evil. This divide implies, that within all the superficial divides of culture, like religion/atheism, black/white, male/ female, Liberal/Conservative, jock/nerd, etc., there would be good and evil members on all the teams; on both sides.

The shallow and superficial divides of skin color and sex, although innate but does not control choices of good and evil; rob, assault, lie, etc. The rest of the philosophical divides can be learned or trained. However, there may be deeper innate behavior, like the stages of life divide, more fundamental; common to within groups, that exist apart from any outside training.

This would be similar to how some people are naturally good at athletics, math, literature, dance, song, etc. These innate celebrated behavior listed are true of the religious and atheists, males and females, black and white, etc. Good and evil, by being innately different, could account for the difficulty in retraining most criminals, to become positive members of culture; that is not them.

As an example, say there was an elderly lady trying to cross a road where there is traffic. A good person might empathize with her problem, and try to help her. Some will also empathize, but may not do anything out of a sense of risk or not wanting to get involvement; good empathy but limited.

The evil minded person will not see an old lady in distress, but an easy victim. She is ripe to get her pocketbook stolen, since she cannot give chase or cross the traffic. Like those who can empathize, but may not get involved, evil may do the opposite and pretend to help her, getting her to hand him her purse and her bags, so he can steal it easier. He is not as evil as the one who innate wants to intimidate or beat down, but he still is a predator.

The question I have is, do members of all the various groups and opposite sides, notice good and evil people in their chosen clan or side?They may be true to the clan, but this has to do with their approach. Ideas like relative morality could allow the evil to hide in plain sight. But they will typically go a little too far, too eagerly, for the cause. This contrasts with those who will try to stay within the bounds of a their clan philosophy, without getting underhanded. This may be an Atheist with a good moral code.
 
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Stan77

*banned*
Maybe someone can start by clarifying what is good and what is bad. Should they be defined by societal norms, individual measure, or according to the beacons of wisdom. Are they universals or particulars. So on and so forth.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In an age where shallow and superficial criteria are used to divide people. I like to look for ways to unite people. It may be useful to considered ways to reduce the number of divides, to a much smaller set. Back in the 1970's when I was a teen, the divide was the summarized by the slogan, so not trust anyone over 30. This made two teams for everybody; male, female, black and white, all ethnicities, nerds and jocks, etc., were teamed up by age. Any household would have the same two teams; adults and children, that would compare notes with neighbors and friends. It was awesome with family and neighborly love allowing the experiment; black and white children; boys and girls, versus black and white parents.

I am not sure if this would work today since the family is more broken and there is less love and character development. Classically, this can also be done with the divide of good and evil. This divide implies, that within all the superficial divides of culture, like religion/atheism, black/white, male/ female, Liberal/Conservative, jock/nerd, etc., there would be good and evil members on all the teams; on both sides.

The shallow and superficial divides of skin color and sex, although innate but does not control choices of good and evil; rob, assault, lie, etc. The rest of the philosophical divides can be learned or trained. However, there may be deeper innate behavior, like the stages of life divide, more fundamental; common to within groups, that exist apart from any outside training.

This would be similar to how some people are naturally good at athletics, math, literature, dance, song, etc. These innate celebrated behavior listed are true of the religious and atheists, males and females, black and white, etc. Good and evil, by being innately different, could account for the difficulty in retraining most criminals, to become positive members of culture; that is not them.

As an example, say there was an elderly lady trying to cross a road where there is traffic. A good person might empathize with her problem, and try to help her. Some will also empathize, but may not do anything out of a sense of risk or not wanting to get involvement; good empathy but limited.

The evil minded person will not see an old lady in distress, but an easy victim. She is ripe to get her pocketbook stolen, since she cannot give chase or cross the traffic. Like those who can empathize, but may not get involved, evil may do the opposite and pretend to help her, getting her to hand him her purse and her bags, so he can steal it easier. He is not as evil as the one who innate wants to intimidate or beat down, but he still is a predator.

The question I have is, do members of all the various groups and opposite sides, notice good and evil people in their chosen clan or side?They may be true to the clan, but this has to do with their approach. Ideas like relative morality could allow the evil to hide in plain sight. But they will typically go a little too far, too eagerly, for the cause. This contrasts with those who will try to stay within the bounds of a their clan philosophy, without getting underhanded. This may be an Atheist with a good moral code.

Evil, to find joy or receive pleasure from acts that intentionally harm others. Good, to find joy or receive pleasure from actions which intentionally helps others.

Their brains are wired differently. Unfortunately there is no visual way to determine this except through their behavior and even then it is possible for an evil person to behave like a good person if it suits them to reach their goal. Or occasionally good people can act like bad people but they wouldn't be doing so for the pleasure of it.
 

Stan77

*banned*
Evil, to find joy or receive pleasure from acts that intentionally harm others. Good, to find joy or receive pleasure from actions which intentionally helps others.
So your finding pleasure is the measure of good and evil. So you've made yourself, and the presence of pleasure, the ultimate authority that determines what is good and evil.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Maybe someone can start by clarifying what is good and what is bad. Should they be defined by societal norms, individual measure, or according to the beacons of wisdom. Are they universals or particulars. So on and so forth.
The goal of the topic is to identify the good and evil people within each social group, so we can simplify all the divides within culture. As an instructive example, a malicious gossip, passes rumors with the goal of dividing people. This is evil, since it creates division. Division in culture often begins with a form of malicious political gossip. One size fits all is not advice or real, but a form of gossip.

If evil is what has created all these perceived division in culture; gossip, good people can reverse this, by identifying evil and good, and making the good and evil, of all the now divided groups, part of just two groups. Collective evil in one group, will fight among itself and divide into gangs, while good people from all walks of life will cooperate in a community. We had that for a few years in the 1970's. The bad apples made bombs and formed a destructive anarchist underground.

If you place a few bad apples into a bushel of good apples, the rot of the bad will spread to the good apples. Good apples cannot make bad apple good again no matter how many good apple you have. Evil lacks innate empathy and this is not easy to teach. The path of increasing entropy; disorder, increases complexity as division.

The answer to the question of what is good and evil, is better defined by each group; find the good and evil in each group. This accommodates more than one definition of good and evil, since the rules of each group can be different. I do not believe victimless crimes are evil. This is more like a social taboo; clannish. Evil tends to create victims due to lack of innate empathy.

In war, teams of soldiers are required to kill or be killed. There are those soldiers who enjoy this right to kill, a little too much. While others have a very hard time and some never recover from their guilt. But in both cases, the rules of the solider group, requires and expects you to participate in what for most civilians, is wrong and evil. However, in that group these are the expected rules; relative morality. The difference is how one deals with open season on group relative sins, based on classic morality. If good and evil are innate some are more inhibited to do what is allowed; the good, while others enjoy over doing it. This may include treatment of prisoners and people of the same culture as the enemy. Some soldiers will give chocolate to the children, while others, the butt of a rifle for a friend killed.

When I was a child, we would sometimes egg houses on Halloween as a boyhood right of passage. One had to go along with the peers, but not everyone was as enthusiastic doing the destruction. I would run with the crowds but miss on purpose. They gave me a pass, since I was seen as a good kid and had a good arm. Other boys were way over zealous, with no sense of the impact on others. This is a good litmus test, since lack of empathy, makes other forms of victimizing others, much easier.

There is no list, but rather it is more about when confronted with a group's given rights that could potentially harm others, physically, emotionally, financially, psychologically, etc., there is either empathy or not. Good and evil, in terms of relative morality, is a function of conscience or not; deeper code. If you have a conscience, you can get along on the good team and not cause rot.
 

Stan77

*banned*
The goal of the topic is to identify the good and evil people within each social group, so we can simplify all the divides within culture. As an instructive example, a malicious gossip, passes rumors with the goal of dividing people. This is evil, since it creates division. Division in culture often begins with a form of malicious political gossip. One size fits all is not advice or real, but a form of gossip.

If evil is what has created all these perceived division in culture; gossip, good people can reverse this, by identifying evil and good, and making the good and evil, of all the now divided groups, part of just two groups. Collective evil in one group, will fight among itself and divide into gangs, while good people from all walks of life will cooperate in a community. We had that for a few years in the 1970's. The bad apples made bombs and formed a destructive anarchist underground.

If you place a few bad apples into a bushel of good apples, the rot of the bad will spread to the good apples. Good apples cannot make bad apple good again no matter how many good apple you have. Evil lacks innate empathy and this is not easy to teach. The path of increasing entropy; disorder, increases complexity as division.

The answer to the question of what is good and evil, is better defined by each group; find the good and evil in each group. This accommodates more than one definition of good and evil, since the rules of each group can be different. I do not believe victimless crimes are evil. This is more like a social taboo; clannish. Evil tends to create victims due to lack of innate empathy.

In war, teams of soldiers are required to kill or be killed. There are those soldiers who enjoy this right to kill, a little too much. While others have a very hard time and some never recover from their guilt. But in both cases, the rules of the solider group, requires and expects you to participate in what for most civilians, is wrong and evil. However, in that group these are the expected rules; relative morality. The difference is how one deals with open season on group relative sins, based on classic morality. If good and evil are innate some are more inhibited to do what is allowed; the good, while others enjoy over doing it. This may include treatment of prisoners and people of the same culture as the enemy. Some soldiers will give chocolate to the children, while others, the butt of a rifle for a friend killed.

When I was a child, we would sometimes egg houses on Halloween as a boyhood right of passage. One had to go along with the peers, but not everyone was as enthusiastic doing the destruction. I would run with the crowds but miss on purpose. They gave me a pass, since I was seen as a good kid and had a good arm. Other boys were way over zealous, with no sense of the impact on others. This is a good litmus test, since lack of empathy, makes other forms of victimizing others, much easier.

There is no list, but rather it is more about when confronted with a group's given rights that could potentially harm others, physically, emotionally, financially, psychologically, etc., there is either empathy or not. Good and evil, in terms of relative morality, is a function of conscience or not; deeper code. If you have a conscience, you can get along on the good team and not cause rot.
Yes, gossip is part of the vilification process. Psychologists also call it reputation destruction. Paint the guy you hate as bad, as advertisement. I am positive there are some here that subscribe to that kind of MO. This may also be considering as perpetuating "evil".

Form what you're saying it appears you hold to the view that good and evil are relative. I question if in actuality, as in in principle, that is the case. However i can see why notions of relative good/evil can be more convenient for carrying on the duplicitous nonsense of humanity, aka "evil".
 
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Kfox

Well-Known Member
So you've made yourself, and the presence of pleasure, the ultimate authority that determines what is good and evil.
Yes. If people aren't the ones to determine what is good vs evil, who then? Just as animals and insects determine what is good vs bad for their group, humans determine what is good vs bad for our group
 

Stan77

*banned*
Yes. If people aren't the ones to determine what is good vs evil, who then?
Um, not so fast. How is the determination done? By those on the top tier? By general consensus? is every human's voice represented? How "good" are those who decide for the rest? You see.
Just as animals and insects determine what is good vs bad for their group, humans determine what is good vs bad for our group
Um, not really. I have yet to see some replicating evidence of insects and animals "deciding" as a collective? And if they do, then to verify if their decisions making is free from the aforesaid defects.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Um, not so fast. How is the determination done? By those on the top tier? By general consensus? is every human's voice represented? How "good" are those who decide for the rest? You see.
There are many different ways this is done. Humans are social creatures so when a society of humans live together, that society generally decides how this is done; sometimes each member of the group gets a vote (democracy), sometimes powerful people in the group are elected to represent groups within the group (republic), sometimes 1 person decides for everybody (dictator), and countless other ways.
Um, not really. I have yet to see some replicating evidence of insects and animals "deciding" as a collective?
They often decide as a heard. When a pack of wolves take down an animal, the leader of the pack gets to eat first, and only after he is done are the other wolves allowed to eat. A male lion will often see a female lion with cubs, he will kill her cubs than mate (rape) her getting her pregnant and starting family of his own.
And if they do, then to verify if their decisions making is free from the aforesaid defects.
I’ve never suggested any of this is done free of defects, I'm only saying this is how it's done.
 

Stan77

*banned*
They often decide as a heard. When a pack of wolves take down an animal, the leader of the pack gets to eat first, and only after he is done are the other wolves allowed to eat. A male lion will often see a female lion with cubs, he will kill her cubs than mate (rape) her getting her pregnant and starting family of his own.
Surely we can't call instinctual responses as conscious "deciding", you see.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Surely we can't call instinctual responses as conscious "deciding", you see.
I believe it is conscious, but even if it were not, I said each animal group decides for themselves; we don't have humans deciding for other animals, or other animals deciding for humans.
 

Stan77

*banned*
I never said it was conscious, I said each animal group decides for themselves; we don't have humans deciding for other animals, or other animals deciding for humans.
You used the word "deciding", which for all purposes is a human attribute, a human conscious attribute, not insects and animals, afaik. Your mileage may vary.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
You used the word "deciding", which for all purposes is a human attribute, a human conscious attribute, not insects and animals, afaik. Your mileage may vary.
My point is; humans decide what is evil/good for humans; not non-humans.
 

Stan77

*banned*
My point is; humans decide what is evil/good for humans; not non-humans.
My point was to question, if this decisions making process in itself conducive to absolute goodness, or is it contributing to evil. Maybe the origin of evil lies in this deciding process.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
My point was to question, if this decisions making process in itself conducive to absolute goodness, or is it contributing to evil. Maybe the origin of evil lies in this deciding process.
Though far from perfect, it is better than all the other systems I've heard of. Do you know of any other system that is better?
 

Stan77

*banned*
Though far from perfect, it is better than all the other systems I've heard of. Do you know of any other system that is better?
Which brings us back to my original question, what is good and what is evil. You cannot "better" something if you are still not clear about what it is you're trying to better.
 
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