Are Gays Persecuted?

[Fluffy]

But I do disagree with the analogy of the show American Dad:
Steve: So then its cool to alienate gays?
Stan: Yes it is son. Gays are the new Blacks.

What blacks went through seems so much worse to me. So I wouldn't compare them.

I agree with your reasoning (and that it is clearly not the case that gay people are persecuted to the extent that black people have been in the past) but I feel that the analogy is supposed to point out that discriminating against black people (something that is largely socially unacceptable) and discriminating against gay people (something that is largely socially acceptable) is equally wrong. It is not trying to say that gay people are slaves or anything like that. The degree is clearly different.

Nobody would sit round in the canteen at university discussing how they wouldn't like to go to college X because it is known as a "black" college. Nobody would try and ban schools from teaching about black culture and history. Nobody prevents their son from bringing their black girlfriend to the house.

A lot of people simply don't view homosexuals as equals or they feel it is acceptable to treat them differently because they are homosexual. These same people wouldn't even dream of doing treating or viewing black people in a similar way because they are black. It is a comparison made commonly by gay supporters and I am certain that the vast majority of them are using it to try and illustrate this point and not to exaggerate their situation.

What definition of "persecution" are you using here? Neither of FatMan's definitions seem to jive with what you're saying.

I feel that believing something about another person because of something that a book states and decided upon due to an immutable aspect of their personality is mistreating them by violating the equal status they deserve as another human being.

Saying that X is wrong is to say that X should no longer be practiced or should happen. In an ideal world, homosexual sex would not happen. That is sufficiently oppressive to be defined as persecution for me but I'm quite happy to call it by anything else as long as my meaning is clear.

 

[Ozzie]

I thought that had been shown to be true.

So does this biological difference sit well in terms of justification for cultural persecution?

 

[Sunstone]

So does this biological difference sit well in terms of justification for cultural persecution?

Some people believe that showing gays are innately gay will lessen the persecution of them. I'm not so optimistic. Blacks are genetically different from whites, and the fact they are "born Black" didn't do a whole lot to lessen the persecution against them.

 

[Ozzie]

Some people believe that showing gays are innately gay will lessen the persecution of them. I'm not so optimistic. Blacks are genetically different from whites, and the fact they are "born Black" didn't do a whole lot to lessen the persecution against them.

I agree. The stereotype of both goes beyond sexual preference or skin colour.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

the persecution of gay people is not compareable with that of black people. The analogy doesn't even need to exist at all. Gay people have not been taken forcibly from their homeland, stripped of language, religion, family, and culture, then made to do slave labor for so long, then share-cropping which was a slavery, then blatant discrimination up until the '60's, then stricken with poverty for the most part as a grand cumulative effect.

If one wishes to acknowledge that gay people get dicriminated against that's fine, but don't compare it to black people, and jewish holocausts, and all that. Its in a bit of a seperate category.

I don't see gay people gettign persecuted at all really. When I was in high school the gay kids got beat up for that. Now, the most popular kids in school are gay. Matter of fact in alot of schools, your talked about if your not gay or at least think it's cool to be gay. As far as I can see among the youth especialy is that gay is in and straight is...well out for lack of better wording. Of course it's not really out. I suppose other people see it where they are, but where I am it's acceptable particularly among the youth.

 

[Green Gaia]

I don't see gay people gettign persecuted at all really. When I was in high school the gay kids got beat up for that. Now, the most popular kids in school are gay. Matter of fact in alot of schools, your talked about if your not gay or at least think it's cool to be gay. As far as I can see among the youth especialy is that gay is in and straight is...well out for lack of better wording. Of course it's not really out. I suppose other people see it where they are, but where I am it's acceptable particularly among the youth.

I hope that's true. I wish that were true everywhere. Too many GLBT kids are persecuted/teased/beaten on a daily basis, and even kids who are straight but are perceived to gay are persecuted and subjected to the same treatment. Many are driven out of their schools and out of their homes. This is still a very big problem for many youth. Kudos to the parents and teachers in your area for teaching the children to be accepting and tolerant of people who are different than they are, instead of hating them like too many are still taught. Many more need this lesson of love.

Also, I don't understand your statement that "straight is out" - have you seen teen pregnancy statistics lately?

 

[Jaymes]

I don't see gay people gettign persecuted at all really. When I was in high school the gay kids got beat up for that. Now, the most popular kids in school are gay.

How I wish that was the case here. When I have seen gay kids that are popular, it's usually because they are, in every other way, "normal". I've never seen a very feminine boy or masculine girl be considered popular. If that's completely not the case elsewhere... great, awesome. But here it's still a big problem and kids that don't fall into gender stereotypes get harrassed and beat up.

Matter of fact in alot of schools, your talked about if your not gay or at least think it's cool to be gay. As far as I can see among the youth especialy is that gay is in and straight is...well out for lack of better wording.

That must be why a school less than half an hour from me refuses to let gay couples come to dances, "for their safety"... because straight is out and gay is in. :areyoucra I'm sorry, but I just can't accept the idea that people are accepting of gay people when "***" and "homo" and "queer" continue to fly around as insults and nobody bats an eye.

Maybe I'm just jaded because I live in a state that deems it acceptable to refuse to add "sexual orientation" and "gender expression" to nondiscrimination policies, legislate it to make not only gay marriage but gay civil unions illegal, and while I've never been beat up for being gay, I have been outcast and groped ("you like girls, surely you'll like a girl groping you!") for it.

 

[Kamala]

Yeah, being gay is cool in high school... which is why high schoolers threw bottles, shouted slurs and flipped us off when a group of us protested one of the schools for suspending a boy who was wearing a skirt.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Hey no need to be sarcastic I was just telling it how I see it at a couple of different high schools in the area. It is becoming cooler to be gay, even in the case of effeminate boys. I realize that's not the case everywhere but it seems to be the case here.

 

[jamaesi]

Hey no need to be sarcastic I was just telling it how I see it at a couple of different high schools in the area. It is becoming cooler to be gay, even in the case of effeminate boys. I realize that's not the case everywhere but it seems to be the case here.

I'm guessing these are all schools in a big city (Chicago). Big cities are more liberal than other areas, hence why gays face less persecution there. However, in most areas all over the world, this is not the case.

I hestitate to call it "cool"- it's just being tolerated or even accepted.

 

[evearael]

Actually, my high school was pretty tolerant as well. The problem for the sexual minorities was usually in the home where quite a few of them suffered through physical and verbal assault.

 

[Kamala]

I don't disagree that things are changing. My generation, I think, is probably the first to have more wide-spread acceptance of GLBT folk (I'm 20, btw). However, there is a danger in trying to describe homosexuality as "cool" in some sort of general sense, because that leads otherwise ignorant people to think that we don't need gay rights anymore, much like how people think that there is no more need for feminism because women are supposedly completely equal (when there are still very obvious economic, social and political inequalities).

 

[XAAX]

I can't think of many Christians who have been held down on the ground, called slurs, and kicked in the genitals in America for just being Christian and the people who did this to them got off because at that time homosexuals were not a "protected" group. I've had that happen to me for just being gay.
.

Your gay and muslim? Thats a first for me, not a put down of any kind, i have had many gay and lesbian friends. I already know the christian belief on it, just never knew the muslim take on it?

 

[XAAX]

the persecution of gay people is not compareable with that of black people. The analogy doesn't even need to exist at all. Gay people have not been taken forcibly from their homeland, stripped of language, religion, family, and culture, then made to do slave labor for so long, then share-cropping which was a slavery, then blatant discrimination up until the '60's, then stricken with poverty for the most part as a grand cumulative effect.

I have heard this crap before but this is not the past. I have numerous black friends that are thankful for what their ancestors endured so that they could be here in this country versus starving to death in some hell hole of a desert. Don't beleive me, ask any black friend you have if they want to go live in Africa...:no:

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I am Black preach if you didn't know. And neither I nor any black person I know is thankful for slavery. If we wanted to come to america we would have done it like everybody else, by choice. FYI Africa is not a desert and not all the people in africe starve to death. Maybe you think Africans all still have bones in their noses, perhaps no clothes to speak of? Africa is a continent composed of many different countries. It would have been more correct to say that some countries in Africa are well below the poverty lines. This is not true of the whole continent. We don't want to live in different parts of Africa for a number of reasons. The first reason is because it is portrayed as the hell hole you think it is, by the media. Secondly, we cannot trace our roots for the most part, so therefore have nothing to go back to. Thirdly after all our ancestors went through we earned with our blood, sweat, and tears the right to be here....and I mean that literally. Enough to prove that we long ago lost our ancestral identity is the fact that we're called black. There is no place called that. People from china are chinese, japan-japanese, native american-native american, europe-european, ireland-irish, brazil-brazilian, africa-africans, etc etc......but no blackland-blacks. The term african-american applies to those people who come from africa who reside in america. It doesn't really apply to us, and the real african americans do not treat us as sharing the same ancestry.

The only thing to be thankful for about our past here is the bravery of our people in endurance. We would have preferred not to have gone through that past at all.


I have regrettably taken this thread off course. I apologize for that. Please resume the topic with no more off-topic spin-offs from me......

Please forgive my ranting but this is a very sensitive and emotional topic for me. I f I have said anything to offend anyone please forgive me as it was not my intent.

 

[Green Gaia]

Your gay and muslim? Thats a first for me, not a put down of any kind, i have had many gay and lesbian friends. I already know the christian belief on it, just never knew the muslim take on it?

In general, Muslims are even more intolerant of homosexuals than Christians are. It's not surprising you haven't heard from many gay Muslims, most are too scared to be open about it.

 

[michel]

Some people believe that showing gays are innately gay will lessen the persecution of them. I'm not so optimistic. Blacks are genetically different from whites, and the fact they are "born Black" didn't do a whole lot to lessen the persecution against them.

But surely, the "trying to show that gays are inately gay" is only emphasising the difference - the same applies to a Black person.

The colour of the skin, the sexuality has no bearing on anything; the person in front of you is a person - an individual. Treat them as such.

 

[jamaesi]

In general, Muslims are even more intolerant of homosexuals than Christians are. It's not surprising you haven't heard from many gay Muslims, most are too scared to be open about it.

Exactly. I'm very open about my sexuality- but I am a UU Muslim. I don't go to a masjid, I go to a UU Church. It would be too much grief to go to masjid- at a UU Church it's a place where I can be me and not worry about what everyone thinks. People there may not agree with all of my idenities but they will never make me feel unwelcome. I need that at least one a week.

 

[XAAX]

I am Black preach if you didn't know. And neither I nor any black person I know is thankful for slavery. If we wanted to come to america we would have done it like everybody else, by choice. FYI Africa is not a desert and not all the people in africe starve to death. Maybe you think Africans all still have bones in their noses, perhaps no clothes to speak of? Africa is a continent composed of many different countries. It would have been more correct to say that some countries in Africa are well below the poverty lines. This is not true of the whole continent. We don't want to live in different parts of Africa for a number of reasons. The first reason is because it is portrayed as the hell hole you think it is, by the media. Secondly, we cannot trace our roots for the most part, so therefore have nothing to go back to. Thirdly after all our ancestors went through we earned with our blood, sweat, and tears the right to be here....and I mean that literally. Enough to prove that we long ago lost our ancestral identity is the fact that we're called black. There is no place called that. People from china are chinese, japan-japanese, native american-native american, europe-european, ireland-irish, brazil-brazilian, africa-africans, etc etc......but no blackland-blacks. The term african-american applies to those people who come from africa who reside in america. It doesn't really apply to us, and the real african americans do not treat us as sharing the same ancestry.

The only thing to be thankful for about our past here is the bravery of our people in endurance. We would have preferred not to have gone through that past at all.


I have regrettably taken this thread off course. I apologize for that. Please resume the topic with no more off-topic spin-offs from me......

Please forgive my ranting but this is a very sensitive and emotional topic for me. I f I have said anything to offend anyone please forgive me as it was not my intent.

I am sorry if you took offense to what I said, I meant no insult by it. I have heard numerous times from people spouting off about the effects on slavery in their lives. When in fact none of them were slaves, none of their parents were slaves. No one has been a slave for a long time. “White trash” does the same in this country when they sit around blaming the minorities as to why they are unemployed. I just think holding the descendants of the perpetrators responsible for their actions is unjust. It’s like the Jews of today holding the Germans of today responsible for the holocaust. Just doesn’t make sense. I do have a tremendous amount of hate for the people who did such travesties to others in this countries history. I myself am classified as a Native American Indian. Talk about taking people from their county and making them slaves, how about taking a country from its people and destroying their culture almost completely. You don’t see that in the western movies. Its always the white man who comes along and saves people from those savage Indians…Right…Sorry, as you can tell I get a little upset about this topic as well. As far as my views on Africa, I was not basing them on our media(completely corrupt). My opinions were from my aunt who lives in South Africa and a friend of mine from college, who is from Africa herself. The stories from both of them paints a picture that I don’t think anyone would want to choose right now. My aunt was forced out of her home on numerous occasions from militia groups for periods of time. My friend on the other hand was able to escape during the tribal killings in the 80’s, and come to the U.S. She had been witness to her family and friends being massacred in the streets and in their homes. She only survived because the tribe doing the killings had mistaken her as one of them. I know these are only parts of Africa but like I said, these are my personal experience of it. As far as being called black, if you are born in this country you are American just as I am. Regardless of where our ancestors are from. Just like my aunt is white, but she is an African. It is all a title to me. Please don’t think I meant any disrespect to you or your ancestors.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I'd like to further comment preach but I think we need to take this to another thread yes? That is if you wanna talk about it some more. I also have native american ancestry as do most blacks, but unfortunately many of us can't say which tribe it was. Geneology is hard when its mixed up. My grandmother was born in 1911 and my grandfather was born 1900. That should give an idea as to how close slavery and its after affects are to me and my family.