Are Buddhists reticent to discuss religious experience?

[Ozzie]

I have found that Buddhists are less likely to proselytize than Christians. The difference seems to be in relating personal religious experience. Buddhists are extremely happy to discuss the teachings of the Buddha but much less so their personal experience of it. The reticence in my view is linked to a worthwhile goal of not creating craving, longing or envy in others. Stimulating these sorts of feelings in others would push them away from Buddhist teaching. Any thoughts?

 

[lilithu]

I have found that Buddhists are less likely to proselytize than Christians. The difference seems to be in relating personal religious experience. Buddhists are extremely happy to discuss the teachings of the Buddha but much less so their personal experience of it. The reticence in my view is linked to a worthwhile goal of not creating craving, longing or envy in others. Stimulating these sorts of feelings in others would push them away from Buddhist teaching. Any thoughts?

Buddhists are less likely than Christians to proselytize because Buddhism was never meant to be a religion for everyone. The Buddha acknowledged that not everyone would "get" Buddhism and therefore there's no reason to be trying to convince people of its correctness.

I don't understand your suggestion that Buddhists would not want to create longing or envy in others. For a person to experience envy, (s)he would have to believe that someone else has something worthwhile that (s)he can't have. So first, you're assuming that such personal experience, if related, would be deemed worthwhile by the listener. And second, if it were deemed worthwhile, there is no reason why the listener could not also take up the practice and have similar experiences.

 

[Ozzie]

Buddhists are less likely than Christians to proselytize because Buddhism was never meant to be a religion for everyone. The Buddha acknowledged that not everyone would "get" Buddhism and therefore there's no reason to be trying to convince people of its correctness.

I don't understand your suggestion that Buddhists would not want to create longing or envy in others. For a person to experience envy, (s)he would have to believe that someone else has something worthwhile that (s)he can't have. So first, you're assuming that such personal experience, if related, would be deemed worthwhile by the listener. And second, if it were deemed worthwhile, there is no reason why the listener could not also take up the practice and have similar experiences.

I suggest it is antithetical to Buddhism to want to create longing or envy in others because these are forms of attachment. And I also find it strange to consider that Buddhism is not for everyone. I think it has just as much and probably more application than Christianity across cultures.

The reticence to talk about personal religious experience I have observed in practicing Buddhists conflicts directly with the openess of spirit I have observed in these people. They are very keen to discuss Buddhist ideas or philosophy. I had a thought that in Buddhism personal religious experience ends up being lived much through the Buddha as an example because this is what is communicated. However, I know Buddhist teachings on a practical level are universal in application. But Buddhists seem hesitant to discuss their personal experience of this.

Maybe Buddhism as a publically shared experience is every bit as much a religion as Christianity is. Christians live their religion through Christ as an example also. The difference comes down to personal experience of the religion which Buddhists seem hesitant to share, whilst Christians are willing to do so.

So is Buddhism a religion with respect to common recognition of Buddha, and a philosophy when applied at a personal level? Or is personal experience of Buddhism a sort of private philosophy?

 

[lilithu]

I suggest it is antithetical to Buddhism to want to create longing or envy in others because these are forms of attachment.

I understand that it is anthithetical to Buddhism to wish to create envy in others. What I'm saying is that I don't think that witnessing about Buddhism would create envy. The Buddha himself taught the Dhamma until his death at the age of 80, and he did talk about his personal experience. In fact, he said that personal experience is the only valid way that one knows what is true.

From the Kalama sutta:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."

But the thing is that you have to have your own personal experience. So someone may talk about theirs in order to show what is possible, but ultimately someone else's personal experience, even that of the Buddha's, will not lead you to enlightenment.
[/FONT]

And I also find it strange to consider that Buddhism is not for everyone. I think it has just as much and probably more application than Christianity across cultures.

Buddhism is not a revelatory religion the way that Christianity is. In Christianity it is believed that God revealed the truth to us and for that reason everyone can understand that truth, if they but hear it. In Buddhism otoh, the truth is discerned through personal insight after cultivating the necessary skills.

When the Buddha first attained enlightenment, he hesitated to go out and tell the rest of the world. He said that what he had discerned was so subtle that he doubted that others could understand it. It was then that the god Brahma, fearing that the teachings would be lost, convinced the Buddha to teach anyway. Brahma said, "There are beings with only a little dust in their eyes." And the Buddha looked out into the world and saw that this is so. So he went out to teach to those of us with only a little dust in our eyes. From it's beginning Buddhism was not meant to be a religion for everyone. That isn't to say that the Buddha didn't care about the rest of us. But he recognized that if we weren't ready for the Dhamma then we would not be able to recognize it as true even when we hear it.

The reticence to talk about personal religious experience I have observed in practicing Buddhists conflicts directly with the openess of spirit I have observed in these people. They are very keen to discuss Buddhist ideas or philosophy. I had a thought that in Buddhism personal religious experience ends up being lived much through the Buddha as an example because this is what is communicated. However, I know Buddhist teachings on a practical level are universal in application. But Buddhists seem hesitant to discuss their personal experience of this.

Maybe Buddhism as a publically shared experience is every bit as much a religion as Christianity is. Christians live their religion through Christ as an example also. The difference comes down to personal experience of the religion which Buddhists seem hesitant to share, whilst Christians are willing to do so.

So is Buddhism a religion with respect to common recognition of Buddha, and a philosophy when applied at a personal level? Or is personal experience of Buddhism a sort of private philosophy?

Ozzie, I'm not sure whether we are talking past each other. I am not sure that what I mean by personal experience is what you mean by personal experience. I also wonder what kind of Buddhists you have been talking to. Are they predominantly Western? Do they come from cultures that are predominantly Christian? There may be a lot of factors at play here that are not directly related to the religion itself but are more differences of cultural expression.

 

[Engyo]

I have found that Buddhists are less likely to proselytize than Christians. The difference seems to be in relating personal religious experience. Buddhists are extremely happy to discuss the teachings of the Buddha but much less so their personal experience of it. The reticence in my view is linked to a worthwhile goal of not creating craving, longing or envy in others. Stimulating these sorts of feelings in others would push them away from Buddhist teaching. Any thoughts?

Ozzie & all -

Well, I think that one aspect is what Lilithu mentioned, that you must create your own experience in Buddhism. Awakening is a very personal thing, and the experiences of it that I have had are both not easily translatable to another person, and not likely to seem very encouraging if I were to do so anyway. It's quite hard to describe.

Buddhism is also very much a practice (or a collection of different practices). It is something that one DOES, rather than something one BELIEVES. One can easily do the practice without belief, and it will produce the same results. Therefore there is no necessity to convince another to believe as you do. One can certainly offer to help another begin practice, so that they can experience this for themselves, and many of us do.

Another point is that in Buddhism you save yourself, and it's hard work. It's tougher than losing weight and staying in shape, it's tougher than almost anything I know of. This is another thing that a lot of folks aren't ready for. Buddhist philosophy says that basically everything bad that happens to you is your own fault. You created that karma by your own choices. If you want change in your life, you must change the choices you make. There is no one else who is responsible, and no one who can do this for you. It is all up to you. This is a point where many people stop; not everyone is ready to accept this as truth and live their lives accordingly.

Just a few of my thoughts; as Lilithu said, Buddhism is what it is (although there are many different forms) and people will either respond to it or not. If you find it to be of interest, there are always folks who will be happy to help.

 

[koan]

My buddhist experience. I understand nothing!