Aqulaung v Buttercup debate discussion!

[Aqualung]

How did you all view the debate? What were the strengths and weaknesses of each argument and of each debator?

 

[Buttercup]

Aqua...your information was wrong dear. That is a big downer right there I'm afraid. Means you're arguments are all for naught off the get go. Like I told FFH, if I had known the correct info, the debate would have ended after one page I think. LDS views are not much different. And that's good.

 

[Aqualung]

Wrong? Or simplified? Was it actually wrong, or did I just not want to go into what the spirit world was completely?

 

[Aqualung]

BTW: LDS views are totally different. You think you don't need baptism for salvation. I do. You think there is one heaven and one hell, and the believers go to heaven and the non-believers go to hell, right after death. That's way different. You believe paradise is heaven. That's way different.

 

[Buttercup]

You were wrong about spirit prison. Spirit prison is where non believers go. Spirit paradise is where someone goes if they've accepted Christ and repented of sins but weren't baptised while alive. That was the OP. And the only one I wanted to debate.

 

[Aqualung]

That's because I was using spirit prison and spirit world interchangeably, as whether it is "prison" or "paradise" is really in the eye of the beholder, and I didn't fell like going through a huge long spiel about the differences.

That wasn't the OP. The OP was whether or not baptism was a requirement for salvation. Since the spirit world was almost a non-issue, I didn't feel like describing it in detail, but instead decided to simplify and use the same terms as I had been using earlier.

Spirit paradise is not "where someone goes if they've accepted Christ and repented of sins but weren't baptised while alive" as you said. It's where good people go, whether they've accepted christ or not, and whether they've been baptised or not.

 

[Buttercup]

Oh brother Aqua, you are a stubborn girl. Go read my first post again. I wanted to know about 'spirit prison' and salvation regarding it. The debate went from there.

 

[Squirt]

How did you all view the debate? What were the strengths and weaknesses of each argument and of each debator?

You want a critique?

Duh. Well, obviously, I think you started out with an advantage, Aqualung. You were right.

Seriously, I think that Buttercup has a good point. I think if you had made a distinction between the Spirit Prison and Paradise right up front, that both of you would have ended up being a lot less frustrated with each other. Since Buttercup could not have been expected to know much, if anything, about the LDS doctrine of the Spirit World (which, Buttercup, is comprised of both Paradise and Prison), I think it would have been a good idea for you to fully explain these two her before jumping in to debate the validity of our beliefs.

I also think that it's always a good idea, even in debates of this sort, to look for common ground. I think that Buttercup was able to find that common ground (in the end). Then you turned around and told her it was merely an illusion, and that we don't really have anything in common after all. It surprises me that, as a convert, you would have approached the debate in that way.

Buttercup, I did notice that Aqualung asked several questions that I didn't see you answering. I saw a lot of "Well, I believe..." coming from you, but not a lot of, "And here are the scriptures to support my beliefs." I'd give some examples, but I think it would just cause the debate to start up all over again. And I think both of you have had enough of one another for the time being.

I just hope everybody's still friends, because I like both of you (and Dawny) very much. :kissbette

 

[Buttercup]

Buttercup, I did notice that Aqualung asked several questions that I didn't see you answering. I saw a lot of "Well, I believe..." coming from you, but not a lot of, "And here are the scriptures to support my beliefs." :kissbette

I used the same example of scripture from the thief and Jesus on the cross over and over to support my point that if you die before baptism, you go to Paradise with Christ. I thought from that example, it was pretty obvious the man wasn't baptised yet went to be with the Lord. That was the point of the debate from my eyes anyway and what I wanted to know about LDS beliefs.

 

[Buttercup]

PS...I have to add that I'm sure I could have done better. This was my first ever one on one and I hope not the last! Hopefully second time out I will have learned something from the first and do better.

 

[Aqualung]

And when I brought other evidences to the forefront, these were not addressed.

Anybody who wasn't in the debate want to discuss?

 

[Squirt]

I used the same example of scripture from the thief and Jesus on the cross over and over to support my point that if you die before baptism, you go to Paradise with Christ. I thought from that example, it was pretty obvious the man wasn't baptised yet went to be with the Lord. That was the point of the debate from my eyes anyway and what I wanted to know about LDS beliefs.

Then I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that Heaven and Paradise were synonyms. We see Paradise as being a place of peace and rest where we await our own resurrection, and Heaven as the place we go after we are resurrected and have stood before God in the Final Judgment. If I'm understanding you correctly, the main difference between our beliefs is that you don't believe that those who did not accept Christ during their mortal lives will have the opportunity to do so during the interum period between death and their resurrection. Do I have that right? (Please tell me if I dont; I want to understand your position.)

 

[Buttercup]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the main difference between our beliefs is that you don't believe that those who did not accept Christ during their mortal lives will have the opportunity to do so during the interum period between death and their resurrection. Do I have that right? (Please tell me if I dont; I want to understand your position.)

I should probably PM you with this answer but I will make it short.

No, I do not believe that after death you get another chance to become a believer in Christ. It's while you're on earth and alive. Because after we die we all see Jesus in one way or another right? So where would the choice be? Of course everyone will say....."You bet I believe! "

But needless to say, this is another topic entirely, and a new thread should be started.

 

[Squirt]

I should probably PM you with this answer but I will make it short.

No, I do not believe that after death you get another chance to become a believer in Christ. It's while you're on earth and alive. Because after we die we all see Jesus in one way or another right? So where would the choice be? Of course everyone will say....."You bet I believe! "

But needless to say, this is another topic entirely, and a new thread should be started.

Are you up to a new one-on-one?

 

[Buttercup]

LOL ! Not today! I need a break. And next time be prepared for much more scripture inclusions! I'm not a debate virgin any longer!

 

[Aqualung]

I should probably PM you with this answer but I will make it short.

No, I do not believe that after death you get another chance to become a believer in Christ. It's while you're on earth and alive. Because after we die we all see Jesus in one way or another right? So where would the choice be? Of course everyone will say....."You bet I believe! "

But needless to say, this is another topic entirely, and a new thread should be started.

See? Our views are waaay different.

 

[Buttercup]

Hey, get on FFH about it then. He was the one that told me they were more similar than not. Heck, I know very little about LDS doctrine. All you LDS people need to be on the same page! A united front!

Just kidding....sometimes it boils down to interpretation, even within the same denominations.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Anybody who wasn't in the debate want to discuss?

I wasn't very emotionally invested in the outcome, but I really admire the way that certain things were phrased, so as to not invite unkindness.

 

[FFH]

. And next time be prepared for much more scripture inclusions! !

This is definitely the key to a good debate.

 

[FFH]

Anybody who wasn't in the debate want to discuss?

I think I know where the confusion came into play.

The term "spirit prison", and "spirit paradise", needed to be defined, by each party (Aqualung and Buttercup), before a further discussion on the "necessity of baptisim before death" could insue.

In LDS doctrine "spirit prison", and "spirit paradise", are not final destinations.

In many Christian religions, "spirit prison", is the equivalent, or very closely related to "hell", and "spirit paradise", is the equivalent, or very closely related to "heaven".

I think that for the sake of simplifying this debate AL might have been using these terms losely, to describe heaven and hell, so as not to get off topic, or because she did not want to get into specifics, about LDS doctrine.

I am not sure who brought up the terms "spirit paradise" and "spirit prison", but they are certainly going to need to be defined by both parties before moving on with a debate, and are certainly very important subjects when discussing the issue of "the necessity of baptism before death".

Many have not received baptism before moving on to the next life, and this is certainly a great topic to discuss further.

"The necessity for baptism is a touchy subject, since many have died without baptism, which includes; 1) those that died before the introduction of baptism, 2) infants and children, 3) those that have never been taught the importance of baptism, and the list can go on and on I think. Baptism is secondary to receiving Christ and his atonement for our sins. Conditions may not be such that baptism is offered in each Christian religion, but important gospel teachings of Christ are taught and accepted, and that is of a huge importance to Christ. Baptism and other necessary ordinances can, and will be done, in the spirit world, for those that have accepted Christ and his teachings.

In over 100 LDS temples, around the world, ordinances such as "baptism by emersion for the remission of sins", and "the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost", are performed for, and in behalf of, all people on this earth who have died without "baptism by emersion for the remission of sins", and "the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" many other sacred, and necessarty ordinances, for the salvation of man.