Apostates of Islam

[Sahar]

Okay, thanks not4me! Would you say that contemporary Islamic societies are not practicing the original message of what Muhammad taught, then?

Absolutely, without any doubt.
Some Islamic thinkers and some Islamic movements considered that nowadays Muslims are not Muslims, and the "Muslim" societies are in a state of Jahillyya just like it was before the rise of Islam (the Meccan period), and thus we should take the same steps that the prophet took in building an Islamic society and state, by first forming a group of believers then establishing a government that follows the Islamic Shari'a. And the same thinking considered the governments that rule Muslims as kafir and the believers should fight them. This kind of thinking appeared in the nineteenth century, (it needs its own thread). This thinking that resembles the status of Muslims with the status of Pagans before Islam is extremist (although it can be very understandable).
What I said above was only to show that some Muslims went to think that "Muslims" are people who need to be preached the message of Islam from the beginning.

 

[England my lionheart]

.lava and Proud Muslim,

I stand by every point I made in this thread. However I hold my hands up that my method of debate on this issue leaves alot to be desired and for this I apologise. I am perfectly aware that my method of debating is too aggressive and confrontational - this is something I have not moved beyond since I became a Muslim.

I will take a few days out from this thread then come back and try to address these issues in a better way.

Again I sincerely apologise for my manners and if I have offended you both and hope that you can accept this.

At least your not a Cherry picker and you tell it like it is and i for one thank you for your imput

 

[.lava]

At least your not a Cherry picker and you tell it like it is and i for one thank you for your imput

could someone please explain what cherry picker means?

.

 

[kai]

Absolutely, without any doubt.
Some Islamic thinkers and some Islamic movements considered that nowadays Muslims are not Muslims, and the "Muslim" societies are in a state of Jahillyya just like it was before the rise of Islam (the Meccan period), and thus we should take the same steps that the prophet took in building an Islamic society and state, by first forming a group of believers then establishing a government that follows the Islamic Shari'a. And the same thinking considered the governments that rule Muslims as kafir and the believers should fight them. This kind of thinking appeared in the nineteenth century, (it needs its own thread). This thinking that resembles the status of Muslims with the status of Pagans before Islam is extremist (although it can be very understandable).
What I said above was only to show that some Muslims went to think that "Muslims" are people who need to be preached the message of Islam from the beginning.

the trouble is not4me maybe all Islamic thinkers and all Islamic monvements think they are right.

 

[Sahar]

I once sat on a coach with a Coptic Christian fellow, many many moons ago and we got to talking; he told me about life in Egypt and how he'd often be heckled by Muslims as he went to church. He told me that often in Muslim countries, including Egypt, they are not allowed to the ring the bells, or be too loud in their worship or mournings, in case they offend a Muslim. This was probably four or five years ago, so this is if memory serves.

I don't know how life is in the capital of Egypt, though, but he wasn't from the capital, he was from somewhere else, and said things can often be more difficult for Christians in Egypt outside of the capital.

But, can you answer how much of this is true, being in Egypt yourself? And if I've not gone senile and got it wrong D) can you tell me, how is this equality for other religions?

The Coptic guy (who is not your friend ) can say what he wants. I myself see that the Coptic Christians enjoy freedom to a great extent. I don't deny that problems (including sectarian violence) happen between Muslims and Christians here from time to time, but it should be looked as sporadic cases.

Muslims could be heckled by other Muslims while going to the mosque, I can be heckled in a non-Muslim country while going to the mosque...it can happen with anyone, and it means that there are some ignorant individuals out there (Christians and Muslims).
I don't know about the bells part but is the Adhan allowed in a Western country?

 

[Sahar]

the trouble is not4me maybe all Islamic thinkers and all Islamic monvements think they are right.

Extremist and terrorist ideologies are confined to a minority, kai.

 

[kai]

Extremist and terrorist ideologies are confined to a minority, kai.

that may be, but i meant all of whatever view probably all think they are right.

 

[Sahar]

if only Muslims can prosetylise then thats not equality

Inequality in dealing with certain ideas and ideologies to protect and preserve the Islamic society and serve its best interest is the right of the Islamic state.

 

[England my lionheart]

could someone please explain what cherry picker means?

.

Cherry picker,example,someone who picks the good parts of ,for example a religion and ignores the not so nice nasty bits.

 

[kai]

Inequality in dealing with certain ideas and ideologies to protect and preserve the Islamic society and serve its best interest is the right of the Islamic state.

i know


your very good, you must go right back over the thread.

 

[Sahar]

that may be, but i meant all of whatever view probably all think they are right.

This can be said about the different movements and ideologies (including the non-Islamic ones). What we can do is fighting the extremist ideology with the moderate one.

 

[.lava]

This can be said about the different movements and ideologies (including the non-Islamic ones). What we can do is fighting the extremist ideology with the moderate one.

i hope you mean "original one" by moderate one. Islam really does not need moderation. it is perfect as it is.

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[kai]

This can be said about the different movements and ideologies (including the non-Islamic ones). What we can do is fighting the extremist ideology with the moderate one.

Indeed it could

its just identifying the extremist view that seems to be the problem , and for westerners killing apostates is extreme to say the least.

 

[England my lionheart]

Does the moderate one still punish adulterers? because in the Ahadith and Quran they are.

 

[.lava]

Does the moderate one still punish adulterers? because in the Ahadith and Quran they are.

it requires four eye witnesses, otherwise you can not punish someone with adultery based on gossip or assumption. punishment in hadiths and Qur'an are different. punishment in Qur'an is not a physical torture, it is supposed to be humiliation. in other words lashes are not supposed to give any physical damage and stoning people is out of context all together.

.

 

[Sahar]

i hope you mean "original one" by moderate one. Islam really does not need moderation. it is perfect as it is.

.

Agreed.

Indeed it could

its just identifying the extremist view that seems to be the problem , and for westerners killing apostates is extreme to say the least.

Frankly, kai, I don't need the Westerner to define for me what is extreme. Even if Westerners thought that certain Islamic principles and rulings are extreme, it won't mean anything to me, I am saying this just to be honest with you.
I personally disagree with killing of the (peaceful) apostates and most importantly without denying any authentic hadith but through reading the hadith in its right context.

As for dealing with him (i.e the apostate), there are different opinions about dealing with the apostate. Most scholars are of the opinion that he should be informed and asked to recant. If after clarification he insists on his position then he should be executed. Other scholars are of the opinion that since the Qur’an affirms freedom of religions, apostasy is left to the individual as real accountability will be in the Day of Judgment. Still other scholars, while considering apostasy as an infraction and a potential threat to the stability and integrity of an Islamic state, they do not find decisive and definitive evidence that the apostate should be executed. At most he may be subject to a discretionary punishment depending on the harm to society caused by his apostasy.

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes a worldly punishment for apostasy. The Qur’an states the punishment only in the Hereafter. However, numerous verses in the Qur’an affirm freedom of religion and reject compulsion or coercion in religion; for example, see Chapter 2, verse 256.

In hadith, however, there are some texts signifying capital punishment for apostasy. However, scholars differed about the interpretation of these texts. Some made a distinction between apostasy which coupled with fighting against Muslims, committing a capital crime or committing an act of “high treason” against the state. According to this interpretation, capital punishment is because of these crimes, not mere leaving Islam. Other scholars made no such distinction. However, the first interpretation is supported by a number of other sound hadiths which show that when a man in Madinah apostated from Islam, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) neither ordered his execution nor punished him in any other way, and when the man finally left Madinah, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him or punish him because of his apostasy.

If indeed the capital punishment for apostasy is a hadd (specified mandatory punishment) one would expect that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would be the first one to implement the law of Allah.

By Dr. Jamal Badawi: IslamonLine.net

And a special folder for this issue on IslamOnline (that reflects the different opinions on this): Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h

 

[ProudMuslim]

.lava and Proud Muslim,

I stand by every point I made in this thread. However I hold my hands up that my method of debate on this issue leaves alot to be desired and for this I apologise. I am perfectly aware that my method of debating is too aggressive and confrontational - this is something I have not moved beyond since I became a Muslim.

I will take a few days out from this thread then come back and try to address these issues in a better way.

Again I sincerely apologise for my manners and if I have offended you both and hope that you can accept this.

No worries AbuKhalid

I apologise too if i have offended you.

 

[.lava]

Agreed.


Frankly, kai, I don't need the Westerner to define for me what is extreme. Even if Westerners thought that certain Islamic principles and rulings are extreme, it won't mean anything to me, I am saying this just to be honest with you.
I personally disagree with killing of the (peaceful) apostates and most importantly without denying any authentic hadith but through reading the hadith in its right context.

As for dealing with him (i.e the apostate), there are different opinions about dealing with the apostate. Most scholars are of the opinion that he should be informed and asked to recant. If after clarification he insists on his position then he should be executed. Other scholars are of the opinion that since the Qur’an affirms freedom of religions, apostasy is left to the individual as real accountability will be in the Day of Judgment. Still other scholars, while considering apostasy as an infraction and a potential threat to the stability and integrity of an Islamic state, they do not find decisive and definitive evidence that the apostate should be executed. At most he may be subject to a discretionary punishment depending on the harm to society caused by his apostasy.

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes a worldly punishment for apostasy. The Qur’an states the punishment only in the Hereafter. However, numerous verses in the Qur’an affirm freedom of religion and reject compulsion or coercion in religion; for example, see Chapter 2, verse 256.

In hadith, however, there are some texts signifying capital punishment for apostasy. However, scholars differed about the interpretation of these texts. Some made a distinction between apostasy which coupled with fighting against Muslims, committing a capital crime or committing an act of “high treason” against the state. According to this interpretation, capital punishment is because of these crimes, not mere leaving Islam. Other scholars made no such distinction. However, the first interpretation is supported by a number of other sound hadiths which show that when a man in Madinah apostated from Islam, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) neither ordered his execution nor punished him in any other way, and when the man finally left Madinah, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him or punish him because of his apostasy.

If indeed the capital punishment for apostasy is a hadd (specified mandatory punishment) one would expect that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would be the first one to implement the law of Allah.

By Dr. Jamal Badawi: IslamonLine.net

And a special folder for this issue on IslamOnline (that reflects the different opinions on this): Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h

what's the difference between an apostate and a non-Muslim if they both involved with high treason? and who's going to decide which act is high treason or not? i mean, for some religious, an apostate speaking his mind could be proof for high treason. who's going to draw the line there? this is one of the things that i find seriously troubling. if our leaders were bigots or extremists, then we are doomed, aren't we?

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[Sahar]

Kai, explaining why the status of Muslims is in its worst needs its own thread as this will include the reason for weakness and fall of the Islamic Khilafa and the cricumstances at that time, the colonization of most of Muslim countries by Western countries, the appearance of the liberal ideologies in the Muslim society, the clash between the liberal nationalist governments and the Islamists...internal factors like poverty, illiteracy, tyranny of the governments...etc. and extrenal factors like the pressure from the west...many other points...it's a long story.

 

[England my lionheart]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The verses of the Quran are "mubayyinat", i.e which make things plain, clear, distinct and perspicuous [/FONT]

Huston,we have a problem,it is clear from this thread that things are far from plain ,clear,distinct and perspicuous,far from it,from my perspective it seems that Muslims cannot see further than their noses and suffer from being anally retentive.
Trying to emulate Muhammed who lived 1400 years ago which at first seems not too strange as Christians follow Jesus and try emulate his deeds
but the difference here is Jesus never put anyone to death for anything,whereas Muhammed killed Apostates,adulterers and had a number of Jews executed.
This is what a non believer such as myself sees,far from a beautiful religion of peace which is clear distint etc we see it's ugly side,whether punishments are Earthly or in the afterlife the punishments are plentiful in what is IMHO a totalitarian ideaology gone mad.