Apostasy

[Horrorble]

When a Witness (baptised member) leaves the organisation does the governing body advice not to speak to that person at all(including family and friends who are in the organisation), or just limit how much time you spend with them?
(Genuine question)

 

[Pegg]

When a Witness (baptised member) leaves the organisation does the governing body advice not to speak to that person at all(including family and friends who are in the organisation), or just limit how much time you spend with them?
(Genuine question)

Hi,

Its actually a biblical rule we are following, not a governing body rule.

God’s Word directs the congregation to expel those who unrepentantly practice sin. 1*Corinthians 5:11-13 *But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12*For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13*while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

Notice that the scripture directs us to quit mixing in company with 'anyone' called a brother who practices sin?
This means that the 'anyone' could be someone from our own family. So the scriptural directive is that we should stop associating with that person if they become disfellowshipped due to an unrepentant sinful course.


However the Governing Body have said that in some circumstances, we could still have dealings with such a family member when it comes to family issues such as where to bury Grandma, or how to divide a family will for example.

Also the Governing Body have said that if the disfellowshipped one is still a minor living at home, lets say a teenager, then obviously the normal family routines would continue... but in this case it is the 'spiritual' activities that the disfellowshipped person would not be included in.

Here is a snipet from a 1994 Watchtower on Disfellowshipping in the Immediate family pp24 p9

IN THE IMMEDIATE FAMILY CIRCLE
9 A person might become a Christian without others in that one’s family circle accepting the faith. For instance, a wife might be serving Jehovah, but her husband not. Despite that, she is still “one flesh” with her husband and is obliged to love and respect him. (Gen. 2:24; 1 Pet. 3:1-6) Or she might be married to a man who was a dedicated Christian but was later expelled from the congregation. Yet that would not end their marital ties; only death or a Scriptural divorce would do that.—1 Cor. 7:39; Matt. 19:9.

10 Similarly, if a relative, such as a parent, son or daughter, is disfellowshiped or has disassociated himself, blood and family ties remain. Does that mean, then, that in the family circle everything remains the same when one member is disfellowshiped? Definitely not.

11 A disfellowshiped person has been spiritually cut off from the congregation; the former spiritual ties have been completely severed. This is true even with respect to his relatives, including those within his immediate family circle. Thus, family members—while acknowledging family ties—will no longer have any spiritual fellowship with him.—1*Sam. 28:6; Prov. 15:8, 9.
12 That will mean changes in the spiritual fellowship that may have existed in the home. For example, if the husband is disfellowshiped, his wife and children will not be comfortable with him conducting a family Bible study or leading in Bible reading and prayer. If he wants to say a prayer, such as at mealtime, he has a right to do so in his own home. But they can silently offer their own prayers to God. (Prov. 28:9; Ps. 119:145, 146) What if a disfellowshiped person in the home wants to be present when the family reads the Bible together or has a Bible study? The others might let him be present to listen if he will not try to teach them or share his religious ideas.
13 If a minor child is disfellowshiped, the parents will still care for his physical needs and provide moral training and discipline. They would not conduct a Bible study directly with the child, with him participating. Yet this does not mean that he would not be required to sit in on the family study. And they might direct attention to parts of the Bible or Christian publications that contain counsel he needs. (Prov. 1:8-19; 6:20-22; 29:17; Eph. 6:4) They can have him accompany them to and sit with them at Christian meetings, hoping that he will take to heart Biblical counsel.

14 But what if a close relative, such as a son or a parent who does not live in the home, is disfellowshiped and subsequently wants to move back there? The family could decide what to do depending on the situation.
15 For example, a disfellowshiped parent may be sick or no longer able to care for himself financially or physically. The Christian children have a Scriptural and moral obligation to assist. (1 Tim. 5:8) Perhaps it seems necessary to bring the parent into the home, temporarily or permanently.

 

[Horrorble]

Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear in the OP, I meant someone who leaves the organisation of their own accord (apostate) not someone who was disfellowshipped.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear in the OP, I meant someone who leaves the organisation of their own accord (apostate) not someone who was disfellowshipped.

not everyone who leaves the organization are apostates and we certainly dont view them as apostates just because they leave.

To be an apostate means to actively oppose Gods people and his teachings....they dont merely abandon the faith, they go out against it and try to bring it down.

There are many people who have been associated with us in the past but for one reason or another left and no longer associate with a congregation. We have no need to shun such ones....in fact we would do what we could to help them come back....the door is always open for them btw.

 

[Horrorble]

Thanks! Does this include if they are baptised and renounce their baptism?

 

[Pegg]

Thanks! Does this include if they are baptised and renounce their baptism?

that is what we call 'disassociated'

In that case, we take the 'disfellowshipped' approach because the person has disfellowshipped themselves from the congregation;....so they've basically disowned the congregation and would not likely want any fellowship with anyone anyway.

If they did want to fellowship again, they could come back and have their prior decision reversed...then the congregation would welcome them again.

 

[Horrorble]

that is what we call 'disassociated'

In that case, we take the 'disfellowshipped' approach because the person has disfellowshipped themselves from the congregation;....so they've basically disowned the congregation and would not likely want any fellowship with anyone anyway.

If they did want to fellowship again, they could come back and have their prior decision reversed...then the congregation would welcome them again.

I don't know...if their family and friends are in the congregation I would think they would still want to have fellowship with them :/
I have one more question (sorry for being annoying) is a disassociated person an apostate?

 

[Echad]

Shunning is not loving. Jesus mixed with the sinners, whores and tax collectors and had meals with those. Just because someone follows his conscience and disassociates doesn't mean he no longer believes in the gospel, Jesus' blood or the Bible. He still can hold the Christian faith, does is no apostate and so must not be shunned.

Sorry your reasoning here is flawed.

 

[Horrorble]

Shunning is not loving. Jesus mixed with the sinners, whores and tax collectors and had meals with those. Just because someone follows his conscience and disassociates doesn't mean he no longer believes in the gospel, Jesus' blood or the Bible. He still can hold the Christian faith, does is no apostate and so must not be shunned.

Sorry your reasoning here is flawed.

Sorry mate, I don't think you are allowed to debate in the DIR's

 

[Pegg]

I don't know...if their family and friends are in the congregation I would think they would still want to have fellowship with them :/
I have one more question (sorry for being annoying) is a disassociated person an apostate?

Of course family and friends want to associate with them... but they also want the person to uphold Gods laws and if the person is not willing to do that then they have to decide if their relationship with the person is more important then their relationship with God. Jesus tells christians they must put their love for God first before even mother or father....we dont want anyone we love to be disfellowshiped, but if they are, its because they refused to repent over some wrongdoing and chose to keep pursuing the wrong course instead. If we were to overlook their decision to do that, then we would be condoning the wrong action and putting our own relationship with God at risk. This is the reason why we stay away from disfellowshiped ones... its a public declaration of who's side we are standing on.


But not everyone who leaves is considered an apostate. An apostate is someone who turns against the congregation and actively...that means actively...publicly protests, harasses, disturbs meetings or distributes propaganda material against the teachings of the organization... thats what a person would need to do to be considered an apostate.


many simply leave the congregation because they prefer to pursue a course different to the one that the organization highlights to pursue. So some just leave because they give up in living by the laws and standards of the congregation. They are not apostates, they are just tired ones.

 

[Pegg]

Shunning is not loving. Jesus mixed with the sinners, whores and tax collectors and had meals with those. Just because someone follows his conscience and disassociates doesn't mean he no longer believes in the gospel, Jesus' blood or the Bible. He still can hold the Christian faith, does is no apostate and so must not be shunned.

Sorry your reasoning here is flawed.

Do you recall the account of Cain and Abel? After Cain committed a gross sin by murdering his brother, God exiled him away from his family to live as a fugitive.

He did that to protect the other family members from an unrepentant wrongdoer. And that is why we do so in the congregation too....its the way God has chosen to do it.

 

[Horrorble]

Thanks for the reply. But I meant I would think the disassociated person would still want to have a relationship with their family and friends in the congregation.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for the reply. But I meant I would think the disassociated person would still want to have a relationship with their family and friends in the congregation.

yes im sure they would

But what God is trying to teach them is that if they dont submit to his ways they will loose, not only their family and friends, but their life too. He doesnt want them to loose any of it... he wants them to repent and come back to him.

 

[Horrorble]

yes im sure they would

But what God is trying to teach them is that if they dont submit to his ways they will loose, not only their family and friends, but their life too. He doesnt want them to loose any of it... he wants them to repent and come back to him.

So what did you mean by this "so they've basically disowned the congregation and would not likely want any fellowship with anyone anyway."

 

[Pegg]

So what did you mean by this "so they've basically disowned the congregation and would not likely want any fellowship with anyone anyway."

that was in regards to a person who disassociates themselves from a congregation.....i didnt think we were specifically talking about family members.

 

[kjw47]

Shunning is not loving. Jesus mixed with the sinners, whores and tax collectors and had meals with those. Just because someone follows his conscience and disassociates doesn't mean he no longer believes in the gospel, Jesus' blood or the Bible. He still can hold the Christian faith, does is no apostate and so must not be shunned.

Sorry your reasoning here is flawed.

Jesus talked with and associated with sinners who had not as of yet dedicated themselves to God--- the disfellowshipped publicly dedicated their lives to the true God, then because of unrepentant sin, get disfellowshipped. Here is why they are shunned, even if a family member.------ To God an unrepentant sinner is wicked--His word clearly teaches-- Remove the wicked one from amongst yourselves. Every human on the planet has love in their hearts for family and friends--Hitler did as well as the humans in Noahs day--- but to God they were wicked because of unrepentant sin.

Think about what occurred in Noahs day---8 humans knew God-- As for the rest-- The ruler of this world-satan, gets parents to hand down false god worship and pagan practices to their own children, but are told that they serve the true God. Nothing has changed in todays world--many different religions, many different gods--all false except one.