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'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam


Baring the Cross
Aside from that, all of Jay Smith's apparent "corruptions" are precisely always concerning handwriting via elongated letters.
Not at all. We are speaking of completely redacted, or altered, material in the varying "Q's", not merely elongation (which is not the argument, at all). Islamic scholars are acknowledging this, why don't you?

As a for instance - Link

[11] "Algeria, where are your Jews?" — Hillel Neuer silences the U.N." (Hillel Neuer)

[12] "David Wood — Answering Islam" (David Wood, Acts 17 Apologetics)

[13] "How Muhammad Ali Was Deceived by Islam" (David Wood, Acts 17 Apologetics)

[14] "Whitewashing Islam: 20 Errors on 20/20 (ABC News)" (David Wood, Acts 17 Apologetics)

[15] "Carl Goldberg - The "Logic" of Islam" (Carl Goldberg)



Activist Membrane
Not at all. We are speaking of completely redacted, or altered, material in the varying "Q's", not merely elongation (which is not the argument, at all). Islamic scholars are acknowledging this, why don't you?

You're going to have to provide evidence of these claims, you're giving me hearsay.

As for your sources, the more you reveal your sources the less impressed I am. You're getting incredibly lazy if you're using David Wood to make arguments here.
This is a common trend with missionary polemicists, reference Smith? check, Spencer? check, Wood? check.

edit; anyway...

Last edited:


Activist Membrane
Please do not think to merely brush this aside by too narrow a focus.

Ubayy was the best of reciters and teachers of the Qur'an. His Qur'an has material in it that is not in the standard Qur'an, and Aisha recollected material which is not in the standard accepted Qur'an.

Surah 33:6 (Yusuf-Ali translation) -

“... The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. ...”​
Footnote 3674 of the Yusuf-Ali translation to Surah 33:6 says -

“... In some Qiraahs, like that of Ubayy ibn Ka'ab, occcur also the words "and he is a father of them", ...”​
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 521 -

“... Narrated Masriq: 'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud' said, “I shall ever love that man, I heard the Prophet saying, “Take (learn) the Qur'an from four: 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin Ka'b.'” ...”​
Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir Volume 2, page. 444 -

“... The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [Muhammad] who I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. ...”

In Surah 2:238, it is written:
Surah 2:238 (Pickthall translation) -

“... Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with
devotion to Allah. ...”​
Surah 2:238 (Shakir translation) -

“... Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly
obedient to Allah. ...”​
Yet, Aisha, the favourite wife of Muhammad, even the mother of the faithful said (Sahih):
Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Chapter 78, Number 1316 -

“... Abu Yunus, the freed slave of 'A'isha said: 'A'isha ordered me to transcribe a copy of the Qur'an for her and said: When you reach this verse:" Guard the prayers and the middle prayer" (ii. 238), inform me; so when I reached it, I informed her and she gave me dictation (like this): Guard the prayers and the middle prayer and the afternoon prayer, and stand up truly obedient to Allah. 'A'isha said: This is how I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). ...”​
Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Chapter 78, Number 1317 -

“... Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: This verse was revealed (in this way): “Guard the prayers and the 'Asr prayer.” We recited it (in this very way) so long as Allah desired. Allah, then, abrogated it and it was revealed: “Guard the prayers, and the middle prayer.” A person who was sitting with Shaqiq (one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters) said: Now it implies the 'Asr prayer. Upon this al-Bara' said: I have already informed you how this (verse) was revealed and how Allah abrogated it, and Allah knows best. Imam Muslim said: Ashja'i narrated it from Sufyan al-Thauri, who narrated it from al-Aswad b. Qais, who narrated it from 'Uqba, who narrated it from al-Bara' b. 'Azib who said: We recited with the Prophet (may peace be upon him) (the above-mentioned verse like this, i. e. instead of Salat al- Wusta, Salat al-'Asr) for a certain period. as It has been mentioned (in the above-quoted hadith). ...”​
Jami at-Tirmidhi, Volume 5, Book 44, Chapter 2, Number 2982 -

“... (29). 2982 Abu Yunus, the freed slave of 'Aishah, said: “Aishah ordered me to write a Mushaf for her, and she said: 'When you get to this Ayah then tell me: Guard strictly (the five obligatory) prayers, and the middle Salat.[1] So when I reached it, I told her and she dictated to me: 'Guard strictly (the five obligatory) prayers, and the middle Salat, and Salat Al-'Asr. And stand before Allah with obedience.' She said: 'I heard that from the Messenger of Allah.” (Sahih)

There is something on this topic from Hafsah.

[Abu 'Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih. ...”

“... [1] Al-Baqarah 2:238. ...”​

Zayd Ibn Thabit is basically the author/compiler of the modern Qur'an, which differs [called deceptive] from the one which Ibn Sa'd liked.

Jami At-Tirmidhi, Volume 5, Book 44, Chapter 9, Number 3104 -

“... Comments:

When the Prophet had left the world, and the noble Companions had to fight on various fronts due to various reasons, many well-versed reciters of the Qur'an began to fall victims of various battles and were martyred. It was then realised that the Qur'an should be gathered in the form of a proper textual book. The Qur'an was already written on different things and also the people had memorised it. The noble Companions were strict followers of the Prophet and they had the strongest enthusiasts passion of following the footsteps of the Messenger of Allah, they would never approve of any kind of disobedience to the example of the Messenger of Allah. As the Prophet did not gather the whole Qur'an in form of a proper textual book, so Abu Bakr was reluctant to do so. But when he became certain that the Prophet did not do so because of a certain reason – as he would dictate to write various Revealed Verses at different places in different Surah, and there was also the possibility of abrogation of the Verses – after the demise of the Messenger of Allah this reason had come to an end. So the current circumstances and the common benefits of the Ummah demanded the preparation of the Qur'an in the form of a proper textual book; finally Abu Bakr agreed to perform the duty.

“... (19). 3104. Az-Zuhri narrated from Anas who said: “Hudhaifah bin Al-Yaman came
to 'Uthman, at the time when the people of Ash-Sham and the people of Al-Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminiyah and Adharbijan.

Hudhaifah saw their (the people of Ash-Sham and Al-Iraq) different forms of recitation of the Qur'an. So he said to 'Uthman: 'O Commander of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book as the Jews and the Christians did before them.' So he ('Uthman) sent a message to Hafsah (saying): 'Send us the manuscripts so that we may copy them in the Musahif then we shall return it to you.' So Hafsah sent the manuscripts to 'Uthman bin 'Affan. 'Uthman then sent order for Zaid bin Thabit, Sa'eed bin Al-'As, 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair to copy the manuscripts in the Musahif. 'Uthman said to the three Quraish men: 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the (recitation dialect of the) Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish for it was revealed in their tongue.' So when they had copied the manuscripts in the Musahif, 'Uthman sent one Mushaf from those Musahif that they had copied to every province.”

Az-Zuhri said: “Kharijah bin Zaid [bin Thabit] narrated to me that Zaid bin Thabit said: 'I missed an Ayah of Surah Al-Ahzab that I heard the Messenger of Allah reciting: Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah, of them, some have fulfilled their obligations, and some of them are still waiting. – so I searched for it and found it with Khuzaimah bin Thabit, or Abu Khuzaimah, so I put it in its Surah.'”

Az-Zuhri said: “They differed then with At-Tabut and At-Tabuh. The Quraish said: At-Tabut while Zaid said: At-Tabuh. Their disagreement was brought to 'Uthman, so he said: 'Write it as At-Tabut, for it was revealed in the tongue of the Quraish.'”

Az-Zuhri said: “'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah bin 'Utbah informed me that 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud disliked Zaid bin Thabit copying the Musahif, and he said: 'O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man' – meaning Zaid bin Thabit – and it was regarding this that 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said: 'O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them. For indeed Allah said: And whoever conceals something, he shall come with what he concealed on the Day of Judgement. So meet Allah with the Musahif.'”

Az-Zuhri said: “It was conveyed to me that some men among the most virtuous of the companions of the Messenger of Allah disliked that view of Ibn Mas'ud.” (Sahih)

[Abu Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan Sahih, it is the narration of Az-Zuhri, and we do not know of it except as his narration.


Abu Bakr, during his caliphate, gathered together the pieces of the Qur'an written on different materials, and he assigned this task to Zaib bin Thabit. 'Umar also agreed to this. Zaid gathered the Verses of the whole Qur'an in the form of booklets, and each Surah was in a separate booklet; therefore this copy of the Qur'an consisted of tremendous number of booklets. In the reign of 'Uthman, the people began to differ in the issue of the recital dialect of the Qur'an, each group regarded its recital correct and the other's wrong. So the need of preparing an agreed and comprehensive copy of the Qur'an emerged; for which a standard copy of the Qur'an was prepared. ...”​
Sunan Ibn Majah, Volume 3, Book 9, Chapter 35, Number 1944 -

“... 1944. It was narrated that 'Aisha said: “The verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” (Hasan)​
Muhammad died and no one had as yet compiled the Qur'an into a single source. People which had memorized large portions of the sayings of Muhammad were sent into battle by Abu Bakr and they were slaughtered, thus losing many verses altogether. In the case of Aishah and the sheep, who can blame her lack of guarding such a [per]verse!

See As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an, part 3, page 72.

You're using a lot of invalid sources here, I understand that it's easier for you to do that but it means for you that you will only attack a strawman here.


Baring the Cross
1. Authority of Hadith...
So, you're going to simply ignore what I said and post a bunch of random links? I wouldn't mind the material, if it were in conjunction with what we were already discussing, but that they aren't says quite a bit.

For instance, what do you do with the screen shots as presented by 'James White', whose source material is not himself (so merely focusing upon the errors of the man, is non-sequitur). I am speaking about source documentation in matters "Q".

[16] "Jay Smith: The Historical Origins of Islam" (Jay Smith)

[17] "4. Jay Smith: Muhammad A Historical Critique" (Jay Smith)

[18] "99.99999997% of all Muslims have Never Seen This [Dr. James White]" (James White; "reformed Calvinist"; be careful with him; he uses the so-called 'higher criticism' to study Bible MSS, I like him, but he has some faulty positions and theology therein)

[19] "Dr. James White - Islam A-Z (1/2)" (James White)

[20] "Dr. James White - Islam A-Z (2/2)" (James White)



Baring the Cross
1. Authority of Hadith...
I am more interested in "Q", original documentation, and official teaching, but if you want to discuss Hadith we can and their contradictions.

This question [at the bottom of this] involves the background, pedigree of Hagar/Agar/Hajira in the authentic Islamic sources.

I shall begin how this question came to be, as it began with a statment I found while researching online in various places.

Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_in_Islam [not the most accurate source, I know, but a place to begin an open inquiry]] states the following about the Islamic 'Hajar' [Hagar, Agar, Hajira]: "... He [Abraham] married a Pharos's daughter and her name was Hagar. ..."

This statement, whether true or false [for I do not know what the primary authentic Islamic sources say on it], intrigued me. Yet, in all of the Islamic sources that I know to look for for authentic verification, I could not find in either a Qur'an [I find not her name mentioned even once therein, neither her pedigree], aHadith [Sahih], neither Tafsir where the Islamic 'Hajar' is a daughter of an Egyptian Pharos.

What I could find in the primary authentic Islamic sources, was that she ['Hajar'] was an Egyptian [pagan] slave girl:

Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 reveals that the King of Egypt was a "pagan", and that Hagar ['Ajar, Hajar'] was "... a slave-girl for my [Sarah's] service ..."

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"​

Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578 reveals the same, saying, "... The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. ... game me [Sarah] Hajar for service. ..."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasion. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, "I am sick," and he said, "(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it." The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant.

Someone said to the tyrant, "This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady." So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, "Who is this lady?" Abraham said, "She is my sister." Abraham went to Sarah and said, "O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don't contradict my statement." The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. "Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you." So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, "Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you." Sarah asked Allah again and he became alright. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, "You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil." The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, "What has happened?" She replied, "Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service." (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)."​

Sahih Al-Bukahri Volume 7, Book 62, Number 21 reveals the same, saying, "... (The tyrant) gave her [Sarah] Hajar. Sara said, "... gave me Hajar to serve me. ..."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 21:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said: Abraham did not tell lies except three. (One of them was) when Abraham passed by a tyrant and (his wife) Sara was accompanying him (Abu Huraira then mentioned the whole narration and said
(The tyrant) gave her Hajar. Sara said, "Allah saved me from the hands of the Kafir (i.e. infidel) and gave me Hajar to serve me." (Abu Huraira added
That (Hajar) is your mother, O Banu Ma'-As-Sama' (i.e., the Arabs).​

... to be continued ...


Baring the Cross
... continued ...

Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Chapter 38, Number 5848
, says, "... he [tyrant] gave Hajira ['Hagar, Hajar, Ajar'] as a gift to her [Sarah]. ... gave me [Sarah] a maid-servant. ..."

Book 030, Number 5848:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) never told a lie but only thrice: two times for the sake of Allah (for example, his words):" I am sick," and his words:" But it was the big one amongst them which has done that" and because of Sara (his wife). He had come in a land inhabited by haughty and cruel men along with Sara. She was very good-looking amongst the people, so he said to her: If these were to know that you are my wife they would snatch you away from me, so if they ask you tell that you are my sister and in fact you are my sister in Islam, and I do not know of any other Muslim in this land besides I and you. And when they entered that land the tyrants came to see her and said to him (the king): 'there comes to your land a woman, whom you alone deserve to possess, so he (the kings sent someone (towards her) and she was brought and Ibrahim (peace be upon him) stood in preyer, and when she visited him (the tyrant king came) he could help but stretch his hand towards her and his hand was tied up. He said: Supplicate Allah so that He may release my hand and I will do no harm to you. She did that and the man repeated (the same highhandedness) and his hand was again tied up more tightly than on the first occasion and he said to her like that and she again did that (supplicated), but he repeated (the same highhandedness and his hands were tied up more tightly than on the previous occasion). He then again said: Supplicate your Lord so that He may set my hand free; by. @llah I shall do no harm to you. She did and his hand was freed. Then he called the person who had brought her and said to him: You have brought to me the satan and you have not brought to me a human being, so turn them out from my land, and he gave Hajira as a gift to her. She returned (along with Hajira) and when Ibrahim (peace be upon him) saw her, he said: How have you returned? She said: With full safety (have I returned). Allah held the hand of that debauch and he gave me a maid-servant. Abu Hiaraira said: O sons of the rain of the sky, she is your mother.​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 Volume, PDF page 3218, under section "How Ibrahim Broke The Idols", commenting on Al Anbiya 21:57-63]
, is it said, ".... Take her out and give her Hajar. So she was taken out and given Hajar, and she went back. When Ibrahim realized that she had come back, he finished his prayer and turned around. He said, "What happened'' She said, "Allah took care of the evil disbeliever's plot, and he gave me Hajar as a servant.'') ..."

The various statements I read in the primary authentic Islamic sources seem to corroborate the Biblical [KJB] account, that Hagar was only an pagan Egyptian slave-girl of no noble birth [ie. not the daughter of the king of Egypt, yet his slave-girl] whatsoever, as read from the following verses:

The account given by the prophet of Jehovah, - Moses, in Genesis [KJB]:

Genesis 16:1 KJB - Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Genesis 16:2 KJB - And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Genesis 16:3 KJB - And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Genesis 16:8 KJB - And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.

Genesis 21:9 KJB - And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Genesis 21:10 KJB - Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Genesis 21:11 KJB - And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Genesis 21:12 KJB - And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Genesis 21:13 KJB - And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

Genesis 21:21 KJB - And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Genesis 25:12 KJB - Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:​

and the Apostle Paul's New Testament Epistle to the Galatians:

Galatians 4:21 KJB - Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 KJB - For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 KJB - But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 KJB - Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 KJB - For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 KJB - But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians 4:27 KJB - For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Galatians 4:28 KJB - Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 4:29 KJB - But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Galatians 4:30 KJB - Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Galatians 4:31 KJB - So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.​

Therefore, with these finds in my own personal research and studies, I came to the question:

Is there specific reference in the primary authentic Islamic sources where Hagar [Hajar, Hajira, Agar] is actually stated to be the daughter of the king of Egypt, Pharaoh and not just a slave-girl of pagan Egypt? If so, would you please cite and list that source/s with link [where possible]. If not, does anyone know where such a statement about Hagar would come from in the Islamic theology? Thank you for any and all assistance here.

I must disagree with any position which regards Hajar still possibly being the daughter of a Pharos [king of Egypt], according to the Islamic authentic source, since it is written that she [Hajar] was a slave-girl before being given for Sarah's service, which is how Sahih al Bukhari, narrated by Abu Huraira [a most close companion of Muhammad]:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 reveals that the King of Egypt was a "pagan", and that Hagar ['Ajar, Hajar'] was "... a slave-girl for my [Sarah's] service ..."

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"​


Baring the Cross
...There is no substitutionary atonement in Islam (Explanation of Hadith about Jews and Christians becoming a ransom for Muslim) ...
Did you even read it? referring to the commonly noted 110 Hadith Qudsi:

"... Following is the original wording in the Arabic language.

عن أبي موسى، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: " تحشر هذه الأمة على ثلاثة أصناف: صنف يدخلون الجنة بغير حساب، وصنف يحاسبون حسابا يسيرا ثم يدخلون الجنة، وصنف يجيئون على ظهورهم أمثال الجبال الراسيات ذنوبا، فيسأل الله عنهم وهوأعلم بهم فيقول: ما هؤلاء؟ فيقولون: هؤلاء عبيد من عبادك فيقول: حطوها عنهم واجعلوها على اليهود والنصارى وأدخلوهم برحمتي الجنة

The sentence that is most important here is;

فيقول: حطوها عنهم واجعلوها على اليهود والنصارى وأدخلوهم برحمتي الجنة

The translation reproduced by Sam puts it as;

“He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.”


Therefore, the correct translation of the relevant last part of the narration is;

“He will say: Unload the (burden of) sins from them. (However) put it on the Jews and Christians. And let them (the humble servants) enter Paradise by My Mercy.”
(Mustadrak al-Hakim Hadith 193, vol.1 p.126) ..."​

The article proved what it attempted to disprove, even by its own translation. Just the ridiculousness of Islamic da'wah. Notice that the removal ("Unload") of "the sins" from "them" (Muslims) and to "put it" "on the Jews and Christians", and then, and only then, shall "them" (Muslims) enter "Paradise".

The other articles are just as funny.


Active Member
Having personally studied, no one knows who the father of Muhammad really is, not even genealogically, not among Islamic scholars, Islamic Genealogists, or secular, or other. They simply speculate and guess without evidence. Citations as such are easy to find even from top Islamic genealogists (you may look for yourself). You will also find no such answer in "qur'an", nor "sahih hadith", nor Tafsir. There is also the matter of the 4 year discrepancy in "birth", and the Islamic "biology" of 4 year pregnancies to cover the facts of the matter. Thank you for your non-answer, as I noticed you also didn't answer either.
What you call studies is just moving between your black prpoganda books.
Any child knows that Prophet's name is Mohamed ibn (son of) AbduAllah ibn Abdulmotalab ibn ,,, Till Ismail son of Ibraheem.
He's from Quraish tribe, the most honored tribe in Arab pensuia.
Any one or hundred Western claim that he/they know any thing any info about not only but also Arabs history other than Islamic sources is a kind of Juggling and sorcery.
Now, give me single Islamic source / evidance about this Nonsense and rabish.


Baring the Cross
Amazing, that they have to discredit their own sources, as cited below by themselves:

Sunan Abu Dawud, Volume 4, Book 29, Chapter 1, Number 4002 -

“... 4002. It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah whie he was on a donkey, and the sun was setting. He said: 'Do you know where this (sun) sets?' I said: 'Allah and Messenger know best.' He said: 'It sets in a spring of warm water (fa innaha taghrubu fi 'ainin hamiyah).'” (Sahih) ...”​

to avoid the obvious, however, beyond throwing Abu Dharr under the bus, or explaining it away as "unreliable" and "allah knows best" (meaning they don't have a clue and just guess, or make stuff up), beyond the place where the sun actually sets, I am more interested in this great Iron wall which is still to be here, where is it?:

Surah 18:83-86 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [v.83] And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain [Two-Horned One, Alexander III the Great; aka in Islamic sources, Al-Ikasandar, thinking that the “Al” [of Alexander] is a definite article; and of whom thy say was a faithful Muslim, a follower of Allah]. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” [v.84] Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. [v.85] So he followed a way. [v.86] Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): “O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness.” [v.87] He said: “As for him (a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allah) who does wrong, we shall punish him, and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with a terrible torment (Hell). [v.88] “But as for him who believes (in Allah's Oneness) and works righteousness, he shall have the best reward, (Paradise), and we (Dhul-Qarnain) shall speak unto him mild words (as instructions).” [v.89] Then he followed another way, [v.90] Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (Allah) had provided no shelter against the sun. [v.91] So (it was)! And We knew all about him (Dhul-Qarnain). [v.92] Then he followed (another) way. [v.93] Until, when he reached between two mountains, he found, before (near) them (those two mountains), a people who scarcely understood a word. [v.94] They said: “O Dhul-Qarnain! Verily Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Gog and Magog)[1] are doing great mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute in order that you might erect a barrier between us and them?” [v.95] He said: “That (wealth, authority and power) in which my Lord had established me is better (than you tribute). So help me with strength (of men), I will erect between you and them a barrier. [v.96] “Give me pieces (blocks) of iron;” then, when he had filled up the gap between the two mountain-cliffs, he said: “Blow;” then when he had made them (red as) fire, he said: “Bring me molten copper to pour over them.” [v.97] So they [Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Go and Magog)] could not scale it or dig through it. [v.98] (Dhul-Qarnain) said: “This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the Promise of my Lord comes, He shall level it down to the ground. And the Promise of my Lord is ever true. [v.99] And on that Day [i.e. the Day Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Gog and Magog) will come out], We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another; and the Trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them (the creatures) all together. ...”
I have to thank you for the other sources in the links. Makes what I do easier.


Active Member

The Most Awful Name in the sight of Allah, is a man that calls himself “King of Kings”:

Muhammad said that the most awful name in “Allah's” sight on the Day of Resurrection will be that of a “man” who calls himself, “King of kings”. So “Allah” will hate the man called “King of kings”, whom the Christians know as Christ Jesus:

Isaiah 54:5 KJB - For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJB - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jeremiah 23:6 KJB - In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Acts 10:36 KJB - The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

1 Timothy 6:15 KJB - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelation 1:5 KJB - And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 17:14 KJB - These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16 KJB - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 224 -

“... Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, “The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings).”

Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Shah.,” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 225 -

“... Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight.” Sufyan said more than once, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings.” Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Shah.,” ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 025, Chapter 4, Number 5338 -

“... Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The vilest name in Allah's sight is Malik al-Amidh (King of Kings). The narration transmitted on the authority of Shaiba (contains these words): There is no king but Allah, the Exalted and Glorious. Sufyan said: Similarly, the word Shahinshah (is also the vilest appellation). Ahmad b. Hanbal said: I asked Abu 'Amr about the meaning of Akhna. He said: The vilest. ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 025, Chapter 4, Number 5339 -

“... Abu Huraira reported from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) so many ahadith and one of them was this that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The most wretched person in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection and the worst person and target of His wrath would of the person who is called Malik al-Amlak (the King of Kings) for there is no king but Allah. ...”​

Sunan Abu Dawud, Volume 5, Book 40, Chapter 62, Number 4961 -

“... 4961. It was narrated from Sufyan bin 'Uyainah, from Abu Az-Zinnad, from Al-A'raj, from Abu Huraurah, who conveyed it from the Prophet; he said: “The most despised of names to Allah, on the Day of Resurrection, will be a man who is called; Malik Al-Amlāk (king of kings).” (Sahih)

Abu Dawud said: Shu'aib reported it from Abu Hamzah, from Abu Az-Zinnad, with his chain, and he said: “the most obscene name” ...”​

Jami at-Tirmidhi, Volume 5, Book 41, Chapter 65, Number 2837 -

“... 2837. Al-A'raj narrated that Abu Hurairah conveyed to him that the Prophet said: “The most despicable (Akhna') name to Allah on the Day of Judgement is that of a man named King of Kings. (Malikil-Amlāk)” (Sahih)

Sufyan said: “(Like) 'Shahani Shah (Shah of Shah's).” And the meaning of Akhna' is most despicable. And this Hadith is Hasan Sahih. ...”

“... Comments: Akhna (most disgraced) according to some it means 'ugliest'. The names that denote pride, insolence and arrogance; it is disliked to be named such names, like, ruler of the rulers, king of the kings, etc, because complete sovereignty is Allah's. ...”​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, A compilation of the Abridged Tafsir Ibn Kathir Volumes 1-10, in the English Language with Arabic Verses. -

“... Also, the Two Sahihs recorded Abu Hurayrah saying that the Prophet said, (The most despicable name to Allah is a person who calls himself the king of kings, while there are no owners except Allah. ) ...”​

Tafsir of al-Qurtubi on Surah Al Fatiha 1:4 -

[Page 121] “... The recitation of malik is established and it has meanings which mālik does not have, and Allah knows best.

It is said that it is not permitted to give anyone this name nor to call other than Allah Almighty by it. Al-Bukhari and Muslim related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Allah will seize the earth on the Day of Rising and roll up heaven in His right hand and then say, 'I am the King. Where are the kings of the earth?'” Abu Hurarya also reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “The most abased man in the sight of Allah is a man who calls himself, 'the King of Kings.'” Muslim added, “There is no king except Allah Almighty.”: Sufyan said, “Like the Persian term Shahanshah.” The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “The man with whom Allah will be angriest is a man who calls himself, 'the king of kings.' There is no king except Allah.” Ibn al-Hassar said, “It is like that with 'King of the Day of Judgment' and 'Master of [page 121-122] the Kingdom.'” There is no disagreement that this title is forbidden to all creatures in the same way that 'the King of kings' is. ...”​
You're liar as you're copy-past from liars without give it a minute to check a single Hadeeth in this long copy-pastes.
Following is a link to Albuchary book 73
The first 2 Hadeethes don't exist.

You Christians lies in your books depending on ignorance of people.
Most of thoughts circulating in West are just big lies.
No one pays just one minute to verify these rabesh.
Be honest, don't lie, don't bluf,,,, it's written in your books. Right ??
Why don't you do that ?


Active Member
Thank you for the very kind offer: I don't know about the author OP, but I'm looking for reliable information/evidence that supports a single authoritative Qur'an. I would appreciate a little guidance. Do you have any recommendations for websites where I can start reading? Thank you in advance.
You're welcome
This is a good site as it has introduction and definition of Islam. It has also a search tool in Quran
Introducing Islam to non Muslims - IslamiCity
This site also describes Islam in addition to some scientific verification of Quran verses about universe and nature. Also a brief about prophet Mohamed's life
Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran


Active Member
How does any Muslim know that there are not other Satanically inspired verses in the Qur'an, or in the very least in the Sahih Hadiths? What assurances do they have?
Don't worry about moslems, we can manage responding to these lies, just pay some attention to your books and it's historical creditability.
I wish you could just read about historicity of Jesus, Jesus myth theory, and Bible Textual criticism results.
If you just pay some effort to read on these topics instead of copy-pastes of myths about islam, you'll feel better.

All above topics are 100% created by Christians and depends on Christians sources only.


Baring the Cross
You're liar as you're copy-past from liars without give it a minute to check a single Hadeeth in this long copy-pastes.
Following is a link to Albuchary book 73
The first 2 Hadeethes don't exist. ...
Yes, they do exist. I have the books here that I directly quoted from. I gave the links to their material in the OP posts. You have access to the same quotations as I cited there. I lied about nothing, and gave the clean references (see 'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam ). No imaginary Hadith needed. BTW, I hand typed those from their original source, no copy-pasta needed.

Follow the link - https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_Sahih_Al-Bukhari.pdf

PDF page 1381.

What do you say for yourself?
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Baring the Cross
Don't worry about moslems, we can manage responding to these lies ..
I keep hearing "lies", but see nothing demonstrated in evidence that that is what I have done or am doing, or plan on doing. An accusation without evidence, may be safely ignored. My next question to you:

Not all of my questions are so involved, but some are [and this one is a bit longer and more complicated because of the background/foundation being laid [therefore please double check my references], and so please have patience with me, and I will try to mix my longer and shorter questions up a bit.

This question [at the bottom of this documentation] concerns 'Arabia' in its post [afterwards], concurrent [present] and pre-Abrahamic times and its human genetic populace thereof, which focus will be in regards a recurring statement I have heard stated on numerous occasions in regards Ismail [Ishmael], as 'the Father of the Arab/s'.

I have heard/read from various persons, both Islamic and non, that 'Ismail' [Ishmael, the son of the Egyptian slave-girl Hagar, and Abraham] is the 'Father of the Arab/s'.

For instance, in Yusuf-Ali's Qur'anic translation with notations:

Sad 38:48 -- "*4205 Isma'il, the Patriarch of the Arab race, ..."

Maryam 19:54 -- "*2506... He [Isma'il] was the fountainhead of the Arabian Ummah, and in his posterity came the Prophet of Allah. ..."

Al Saffat 37:103 -- "*4101 ... Isma'il, ancestor of the Arabs ..."​

For instance, in Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578 (with interpolation):

Narrated Abu Huraira: ... "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)."​

This is a really unique claim, but is it true or exaggerated or misunderstood or false?

I wanted to know for myself if this specific statement had documentable validity, and so began my search into the various records, such as from the Biblical [KJB], the historical and as well as the primary authentic Islamic records [a Qur'an [itself without notations], aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, etc.]

What I found in regards Isma'il was this, that he is mentioned in the following sources:

a Qur'an [Yusuf-Ali translation]:

Al Baqara 2:125,127,133,136,140
Al 'Imran 3:84
Al Nisa' 4:163
Al An'am 6:86
Ibrahim 14:39
Maryam 19:54
Al Anbiya 21:85
Sad 38:48​

and one additional assumed [Islamic traditional, as Yusuf-Ali says] reference, but does not actually name Isma'il in the Qur'anic text itself:

Al Saffat 37:100-111​

However, though Isma'il is mentioned [except the last citation, which is assumed in Islamic tradition] directly in these texts, there is no explicit or even of implicit mention of his being the 'Father of the Arab/s', though certain texts do speak of a 'progeny', merely in relation to being 'Muslims', not Arab/s.

The only times that the word 'Arab' appears in a Qur'an is in the use of the language of Muhammad's day, "Arabic", "non-Arab" [citing Yusuf Ali's translation with notation brackets]:

Yusuf 12:2 -- "... an Arabic Qur'an ..."
Al Ra'd 13:37 -- "... in Arabic ..."
Al Nahl 16:103 -- "... this is Arabic ..."
Ta-Ha 20:113 -- "... an arabic Qur'an ..."
Al Shu'Ara 26:195 -- "In the perspicuous Arabic tongue."
Al Shu'Ara 26:198 -- "... the non-Arabs ..."
Al Zumar 39:28 -- "... (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
Fussialt or Ha Mim 41:3 -- "... a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
Fussialt or Ha Mim 41:44 -- "... a Qur'an (in the language)(4516) other than Arabic ..."
Al Shura 42:7 -- "... an Arabic Qur'an ..."
Al Zukhruf 43:3 -- "... a Qur'an in Arabic ..."
Al Ahqaf 46:12 -- "... in the Arabic tongue ..."​

Additional possible mentions of 'Arabic language' by implication may be found in:

Ibrahim 14:4 -- "... in the language (1874) of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. ..."
Maryam 19:97 -- "... So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue ..."
Al Dukhan 44:58 -- "Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, (4734) in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed."

[I will have a specific Question coming soon on this subject as well, in regards a Qur'an being given in the "Arabic" language.]​

In searching the Islamic aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, I found rather interesting material in regards "Arab/s/ians/ic", for instance, that in the days of Hajar [Hagar/Hajira/Agar] and Isma'il [Ishmael] there were Arabic peoples ["Jurhum (an Arab tribe)"], with an Arabic language already in existence:

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 40, Number 556:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said, "May Allah be merciful to the mother of Ishmael! If she had left the water of Zam-Zam (fountain) as it was, (without constructing a basin for keeping the water), (or said, "If she had not taken handfuls of its water"), it would have been a flowing stream. Jurhum (an Arab tribe)
came and asked her, 'May we settle at your dwelling?' She said, 'Yes, but you have no right to possess the water.' They agreed."​

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583 [sectioned]:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: ... She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada'. ... The Prophet further said, "Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. ..."​

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, 584 [sectioned]:

"Narrated Ibn Abbas: ... Afterwards some people of the tribe of Jurhum ... "​

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 597:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "Who is the most honorable amongst the people?" He replied, "The most Allah fearing." The people said, "We do not want to ask you about this." He said, "The most honorable person is Joseph, Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Prophet, the son of Allah's Khalil" The people said, 'We do not want to ask you about this." He said," Then you want to ask me about the origins of the Arabs? People are of various origins. The best in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam, provided they comprehend (the religious knowledge)."

[Sidenote, however, in other Narrations in this Sahih of al-Bukhari, the phrase, "People are of various origins", becomes "People are of various natures."]​

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 50 [sectioned]:

"Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun ... I also recommend that he do good to the 'Arab bedouin, as they are the origin of the 'Arabs and the material of Islam. ..."​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 343, citing Sahih al-Bukhari], said,

"... Afterwards some people of the tribe of Jurhum, passing through Kada', made camp at the bottom of the valley. ... "And thus they stayed there and sent for their relatives to join them. Later on, her boy reached the age of puberty and married a lady from them, for Isma`il learned Arabic from them ..."​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 1767], says,

"... For example, Allah destroyed the people of Nuh, and saved Nuh and his believing followers. Ibn Wahb said that he was told that Ibn `Abbas said that eighty men were saved with Nuh in the ship, one of them was Jurhum, who spoke Arabic. ..."​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Saba' 34:15-17], says,

"... (It was neither a land nor a woman. It was a man who had ten children, six of whom went Yemen and four of whom went Ash-Sham. Those who went Ash-Sham were Lakhm, Judham, `Amilah and Ghassan. Those who went south were Kindah, Al-Ash`ariyyun, Al-Azd, Madhhij, Himyar and Anmar.) A man asked, `Who are Anmar' He said:

(Those among whom are Khath`am and Bajilah.) ''This was recorded by At-Tirmidhi in his Jami` [Sunan] in more detail than this; then he said, "This is a Hasan Gharib Hadith. '' The genealogists -- including Muhammad bin Ishaq -- said, "The name of Saba' was `Abd Shams bin Yashjub bin Yarub bin Qahtan; he was called Saba' because he was the first Arab tribe to disperse. He was also known as Ar-Ra'ish, because he was the first one to take booty in war and give it to his people, so he was called Ar-Ra'ish; because the Arabs call wealth Rish or Riyash. They differ over Qahtan, about whom there were three views. (The first ) he descended from the line of Iram bin Sam bin Nuh, then there were three dif ferent views over how he descended from him. (The second) was that he was descended from `Abir, another name for Hud, peace be upon him, then there were also three different views over exactly how he descended from him. (The third) was that he was descended from Isma` il bin Ibrahim Al-Khalil, peace be upon him, then there were also three different views over exactly how he descended from him. This was discussed in full detail by Imam Al-Haf iz Abu `Umar bin `Abdul-Barr An-Namari, may Allah have mercy on him, in his book Al-Musamma Al-Inbah `Ala Dhikr Usul Al-Qaba'il Ar-Ruwat. The meaning of the Prophet's words,

(He was a man among the Arabs.) means that he was one of the original Arabs, who were before Ibrahim, peace be upon him, and were descendants of Sam bin Nuh (Shem, the son of Noah). According to the third view mentioned above, he descended from Ibrahim, peace be upon him, but this was not a well-known view among them. ..."​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Al Dukhan 44:34-37], says,

"... They Tubba` were Arab descendants of Qahtan, just as these people (Quraysh) were Arab descendants of `Adnan. ..."​

Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF page 5653, commenting on Al Fil 105:1-5], "Qahtan", is there also mentioned.

... continued ...


Baring the Cross
Don't worry about moslems, we can manage responding to these lies ..
... continued ...

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Baqara 2:124-127, we read of the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" in a place which is assumed to be Makkah [Mecca], and rebuilding the foundations of the "House" [Ka'ba] and "sanctify[ing]" [Al Baqara 2:125; see Yusuf-Ali's notation *129 [sectioned] "... Such Paganism or star-worship or planet-worship as there was in Abraham's time was first cleared out of Makkah by Abraham, This is the chief meaning of "sanctification" or "purification" in 2:125, ..."] it of the paganism and idols, which would mean that there were already peoples in that area, who had build such a city, and placed their idols there, long before the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" arrived there.

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Ibrahim 14:9, it says in part,

"Has not the story reached you, (O people!), of those who (went) before you? - of the people of Noah, and ´Ad, and Thamud? - And of those who (came) after them? ..."​

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Hajj 22:42, it says in part, "... People of Noah, and ´Ad and Thamud;", which afterwards in Al Hajj 22:43 follows the names of "Abraham and Lot", and in Al Hajj 22:44, follows the name of "Moses", which immediate pattern of names seems to indicate that "'Ad and Thamud", by Islamic criteria/standards, was before or at the time of Abraham.

In a Qur'an. Yusuf-Ali, Al Mu'minun 23:30-31, it says in part [having mentioned the disembarking of Noah in Al Mu'minum 23:23-29, "Then We raised after them another generation.", "And We sent to them a messenger from among themselves, (2894) ...", and the notation by Yusuf-Ali *2894, says [in part], "If this refers to any particular prophet, it must be Hud whose mission was to the 'Ad people, or to Salih, whose mission was to the Thamud people. That is the sequence after Noah in 11:50-60 and 61-68. But I think that as the name is not mentioned, we are to understand in general the type of post-Flood prophets until we come later on to Moses and Jesus ..."

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Furqan 25:37-38 and notation, we read of the people of "'Ad and Thamud", following after the name of "Noah", wherein notation *3094 says,

"3094 Commentators are not clear as to who the "Companions of the Ross" were. The root meaning of "rass" is an old well or shallow water-pit. Another root connects it with the burial of the dead. But it is probably the name of a town or place. The "Companions of the Rass" may well have been the people of Shu'ayb, as they are here mentioned with 'Ad,Thamud, and Lot 's people, and the people of Shu'ayb are mentioned in a similar connection in 26:176-190 and in 11:84-95. Shu'ayb was the prophet of the Madyan people in the northwest of Arabia , where many old wells are found. There is however, an oasis town al Rass in the district of Qasim in Middle Najd, about thirty-five miles southwest of the town of 'Unayzah, reputed to be the central point of the Arabian Peninsula, and situated midway between Makkah and Basrah. See Doughty's Arabia Deserta, thin paper onevolume edition, London 1926, II. 435 and Map. Lat. 26°N., and Long. 43°E."​

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Shu'ara 26:123-124,141-142, after Noah is again mentioned in Al Shu'ara 26:106-119, we have the mention of "'Ad", and "Hud", as well as "Thamud" and "Salih" [Al Shu'ara 26:141-142], as well as "Lut" and family, and the destruction of peoples [Lot, Al Shu'ara 26:160,161,167,170-173], which thus indicates, at least according to Qur'anic and Islamic sources in regards geo-political peoples, were around at the same general era of time. If tied to a Biblical [KJB] timeframe, because of the mention of Noah, unto the destruction of the peoples [which would indicate the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc], and with Lot, it would indicate that these people groups existed in the Arabian peninsula before, during and after Abraham's journey from Ur of the Chaldees and his sojourn into Canaan and Egypt and out again.

According to Islamic [Al-A'raf 7:73-74; "Salih" possibly being "Salah" of Arphaxad, Genesis 10:24 KJB] and possibly some non-Islamic historic sources [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamud ], the "'Ad and Thamud", peoples existing [southern Arabia, in the Hejaz, see also Yusuf-Ali notation *2002, on Al Hijr 15:80, "2002 "The Rocky Tract" is undoubtedly a geographical name. On the maps of Arabia will be found a tract called the Hijr, north of Madinah. Jabal Hijr is about 150 miles north of Madinah. The tract would fall on the highway to Syria . This was the country of Thamud. For them and the country see 7:73, n. 1043.] circa 715 BC, and possibly long before in the time even before and during Abraham's time, were supposed to be descendants of the Islamic "Iram" [Bible [KJB] "Aram"] and "Ars" [Bible [KJB] "Uz"], see also Genesis 10:22,23; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB.

According to Ibn Ishaq's siratul Rasu'allah
[the first classical work of the biographical life of Muhammad] [circa AD 765], page 3-4 [sectioned], we read of the Islamic genealogical line of Isma'il,

"... [page 3] Isma'il, b. Ibrahim, the friend of the Compassionate, b. Tarih (who is Azar), b. Nahur, b. Sarugh, b. Ra'u, b. Falikh, b. 'Aybar, b. Shalikh, b. Arfakhshadh, b. Sam, b. Nuh, b. Lamk, b. Mattushalakh, b. Akhnukh, who is the prophet Idris according to what they allege, 2, but God knows best (he was the first of the sons of Adam to whom prophecy and writing with a pen were given), b. Yard, b. Mahlil, b. Qaynan, b. Yanish, b. ****h, b. Adam (10).* ...", and then,

"... [page 4] 'Ad b. 'Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of 'Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. nuh, and Tasm and 'Imlaq and Umaym the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. ..."​

It is obvious, if I take the Qur'anic, authentic Islamic aHadith, Tafsir and historic biographical sources, even at their own face value, in the matter of peoples living in Arabia before Isma'il, I see that I cannot come to any other conclusion than that Isma'il is not "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', nor even the originator of the Arabic language/s, as some might desire to say, as according to the authentic Islamic source, Isma'il "learned Arabic from" a people group already present in the Arabian penisula, and of which were of the peoples of "Qahtan" [possibly the "Joktan" [a son of Eber] of the Bible [KJB], Genesis 10:25,30-32; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB], and that the peoples of "'Ad and Thamud" were already present also, among others.

I also searched the Biblical [KJB] record, and here is what I find:

The Bible [KJB] itself, God's perfectly inspired, preserved and eternal word [Psalms 12:6-7, 105:8, 119:89,160; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:10-17 KJB], though it does not agree with the Islamic aHadith sources in the specifics of Ishmael's spouses, [similarly, though not exactly], nor even of the specifics of his migrational location does declare that there were indeed peoples already populated in the Arabian peninsula, specifically from the time just after the flood of Noah, when his descendants spread out over the earth, from "Shem, Ham and Japheth" [Genesis 5:32 KJB]. However, before considering those events, I wanted to look at the origin and later migration of Ishmael himself from the Bible's [KJB] texts.

Ishmael, according to the Bible [KJB] was born of the lineage of Abraham [a 'son' [descendant] of "Eber", hence "Abram the Hebrew" [Genesis 14:13 KJB; see also Genesis 39:14,17 KJB and so also Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel [grandson of Abraham], was an “Hebrew”, as per Genesis 41:12 KJB]] and of Hagar [an Egyptian slave-girl given to Sarai/h to be a bondservant, by a king of Egypt; Genesis 16:1-3,8,10, 17:20, 21:9-21, 25:12,17; Galatians 4:21-31 KJB] as may be seen from Genesis 16:10, 17:20, 1 Chronicles 1:28 KJB.

This means that of origin biologically, geographically and of language, Ishmael was an Hebrew [father's side] - Egyptian [mother's side] born [Genesis 16:3, see also "plain of Mamre", Genesis 14:13, 18:1, 49:30 KJB] and sojourned in the land of Canaan [a 'son' of Ham; Genesis 10:6,20; 1 Chronicles 1:8 KJB], and thus may be rightly called [a coined phrase] 'an Hegyptian Canaanite', whose native language/s was/were not Arabic, but that of Abraham [ie, Chaldean, see "Ur of the Chaldeees" Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7, 24:4; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB] and even of his mother, ie Egyptian, and possibly even of the langauge of Canaan, having sojourned there.

There were already peoples in the Arabian peninsula [as spread all over], such as the Joktanite [Genesis 10:25-29; 1 Chronicles 1:19-23 KJB], and the Palgite [of Peleg, the Pelegite, Genesis 10:25, 11:16-19; 1 Chronicles 1:19,25 KJB], and even the Albert Barnes Commentary picks up on this, saying, “... The Ishmaelites constituted the second element of the great Arab nation ...”, though according to other and greater evidences, may not even be the "second element", as Albert Barnes says eleswhere, on Genesis 25:6, " ... These descendants of Abraham and Keturah are the third contribution of Palgites to the Joktanites, who constituted the original element of the Arabs ...". Places/cities like "Hazarmaveth" [named after the son of "Joktan", see Genesis 10:26; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB] were already in existence then, as others. Moreoever, "Uz" [Genesis 10:22; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB], and the "Sinites" [of 'Sin' or 'Sinai', Genesis 10:17 KJB] were also present. Even the children of Ham, having moved down into Canaan, Egypt, and in the Arabian areas would have sojourned there.

... continued ...


Baring the Cross
Don't worry about moslems, we can manage responding to these lies ..
... continued ...

In Genesis 17:20 KJB, God promises, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Since this is so, and there were peoples already in the Arabian peninsula, and Ishmael was not yet made "a great nation", he cannot [logically, evidentially] be "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', from a Biblical [KJB] perspective. Is he an ancestor to some who were later born in Arabia, and who spoke a form of Arabic dialect? Absolutely, but it does not make him "the" Father of all the people groups in the Arabian peninsula, even though he was to be a "great nation". If I were to say otherwise, that would be overstatment of the facts, from all sources thus searched.

Even beyond this, when Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, were to be "cast out" [Genesis 21:10 KJB] at the behest of Sarah, and confirmed by God [Genesis 21:12 KJB], they first went into the "wilderness of Beersheba" [Genesis 21:14 KJB], which is where Ishmael "grew" and "dwelt" [Genesis 21:20 KJB], and thus "dwelt in the wlderness of Paran" [Genesis 21:21 KJB, see and compare Genesis 14:5-7; Numbers 10:11-13, 12:15-16, 13:1-3,25-27; Deuteronomy 1:1-2, 33:1-2; 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Kings 11:17-19; Habakkuk 3:3 KJB], his mother, Hagar, taking "him a wife out of the land of Egypt" [Genesis 21:21 KJB], being her native homeland, and closer to that area. Thus the children of Ishmael's first wife, would be 2/3rd's Egyptian, 1/3 Hebrew, and would speak a combination of Egyptian/Canaanite/Chaldean. Neither Arabian blood, nor language even comes into this mixture at this point, though they were to live in the "east country" [Genesis 25:6 KJB].

Abraham, after the death of Sarah [Genesis 23:1-20 KJB], "again ... took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Genesis 25:1 KJB], whose sons were "Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah." [Genesis 25:2 KJB], "And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. ..." [Genesis 25:3 KJB], whose names are still found in the cities of the Arabian penisula [see Genesis 25:1-4; 1 Chronicles 1:32,33 KJB], such as Dedanim [Isaiah 21:13 KJB], and Midian, as well as descendants of Amalek [no primary relation to Ishmael [* see below], except through possible later co-mingling], and also of Esau [Edomites, Idumeans], etc. These having no relation to Ishmael's line, except through later co-mingling, among the Ishmeelites, Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, etc. There are texts which declare that the sons/descendants of Ishmael migrated further into the Arabian peninsula, such as "Kedar", "Tema" etc. whose cities names are named after there, [see Genesis 28:9, 36:3; 1 Chronicles 5:18-23; Job 6:19-20; Isaiah 21:13-17, 42:11, 60:5-7; Jeremiah 2:10, 25:17-33, 49:28-33; Ezekiel 27:21; Psalms 120:1-7 KJB].

The word Arabia, means to mix, to be intermingled, a mixed multitude, and from that we can see this in Genesis 37:25-28, 39:1; Judges 8:21-28; 1 Chronicles 2:17, 5:10,19,20, 27:30,31; Psalms 83:6; Galatians 4:22-31 KJB.

As far as the Bible [KJB] is concerned, it never specifically states that Ishmael himself moved into the Arbaian peninsula, though it is possible being to the "east", but even this of itself would not make him Arabian [Moses was born in Egypt, it doesn't make him Egyptian, and lived in Midian, it doesn't make him of Midian], nor the Father of all Arabians, but simply a sojourner there, his children, according to the Bible [KJB], being of Hebrew/Egyptian/Egyptian [father, mother [Hagar, and the Hagarenes], wife] blood at the first, then later becoming more intermingled among the various people groups who were already in the region [whether partially Egyptian, Canaanite, Joktanite, Palgite, Sinite, etc].

[*] Amalek [some have thought that Amalek, or the original primary Amalekites was/were of Ishmael, but this is not so, see the following Genealogy]:

Isaac [was the son of Abraham [the Hebrew] and Sarah [Sarai, half-sister to Abram, Genesis 12:13, 20:2,12 KJB], Genesis 17:19,21, 21:1-8, 35:29; 1 Chronicles 1:28,34; Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34 KJB], and he was married to Rebekah [Genesis 22:23, 24:62-67 KJB], daughter of Bethuel [the Syrian of Padanaram, Genesis 22:23, 24:15,24,47, 25:20, 28:5 KJB], son of Nahor and Milcah [Genesis 22:20 KJB], of the ancient land of Abraham, Ur of the Chaldees [Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB].

Rebekah - [married Isaac, Abrahams' + Sarah's son] [Granddaughter to Nahor + Milcah; Grandniece/Great Granddaughter to Haran; Great Grandniece [by Bethuel [the syrian] through Nahor + Milcah] / Great Great Grandniece [by Bethuel [the syrian] through Milcah through Haran] to Abraham; which makes her 2nd [through Nahor + Milcah] and 3rd [through Bethuel [the syrian] through Milcah through Haran] cousin to Isaac, also then being his wife.]​

Through Isaac and Rebekah, came Jacob [Israel] and Esau.

Esau [aka: Edom/Idumea, as per Genesis 36:1,8, Isaiah 34:5,6; Ezekiel 35:15, 36:5 KJB]

Esau married several persons:

Judith [daughter of Beeri the Hittite, as per Genesis 26:34 KJB]

Bashemath [daughter of Elon the Hittite, as per Genesis 26:34 KJB]

Mahalath [aka: Bashemath, daughter of Ishmael, sister of Nebajoth as per Genesis 25:13, 28:9, 36:3 KJB]

Adah [daughter of Elon the Hittite, as per Genesis 36:2,4 KJB]

Aholibamah [daughter of Anah, daughter of Zibeon the Hivite, as per Genesis 36:2,5,14 KJB]​

It was through Esau and Adah, that Eliphaz came, and then from him, Amalek eventually came:

[Esau + Adah] Amalek was of, Eliphaz [born in Canaan [Genesis 36:5 KJB], who was a son of Esau, 1 Chronicles 1:35 KJB, by Adah [Genesis 36:4 KJB], the daughter of Elon the Hittite [a child of Heth, Genesis 23:10 KJB, a son of Canaan [Genesis 10:15 KJB], a son of Ham [Genesis 10:6 KJB], a son of Noah [Genesis 10:1 KJB], etc], and therefore one of the daughters of Canaan, Genesis 36:2 KJB] by [the concubine, Genesis 36:12 KJB] Timna [1 Chronicles 1:36 KJB], who was the sister of Lotan [Genesis 36:22; 1 Chronicles 1:39 KJB]. Lotan was a child of Seir [Genesis 36:20,21,29; 1 Chronicles 1:38 KJB]. Seir was called the "Horite, who inhabited the land" [Genesis 36:20 KJB], aka "Horims" [Deuteronomy 2:12,22 KJB], and the Horites [cave-dwellers] lived in their mount Seir [Genesis 14:6 KJB], country of Edom [Genesis 32:3 KJB].​

Therefore, with all of this research and documentation [further Islamic and/or Biblical [KJB] genealogical record unto Adam where requested], my Question 004 is as follows:

Is it necessary on the part of the believer of Islam, to believe/teach and say that Isma'il [Ishmael] was "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s' in the face of the presented material, and even though the Qur'an does not say it, or is it perfectly admissible to believe/teach and say that he was possibly an [one of several] ancestor of some [not all] of the Arab[ian] peoples, some of whom would become a great [large] nation [people group]? If not permissible, is there an authentic Islamic source which says so?

Thank you for any and all serious consideration.


Baring the Cross
I wish you could just read about historicity of Jesus, Jesus myth theory, and Bible Textual criticism results.
All Jesuit stuff. Read it, seen it, heard it, rejected it based upon actual evidence in scripture:

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

God Himself stated by inspiration that He would preserve His own Inspired words.

You may see that here (view playlist):

Or you may follow this link to the following (just scroll down to the following):

The preserved word of God (Psalms 12:6-7) in the English language – The King James Bible (KJB) – AV1611 – Vindicated Files (PDF & Powerpoint):

You may also peruse the following link:


As for historicity of Jesus, see (I have a lot more) - Link


Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

I write this verse 1 Pet. 3:15 below in full:
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
Thank you for sharing this great verse.

What do you think this means?

Let me share what I believe it means:
1) Be enthousiast about Jesus
2) It specifically tells to share about hope
3) Nowhere it says to tell about Islam
4) Tells not to belittle other (non)faith
5) Tells not to be arrogant in your faith

Don't worry about moslems, we can manage responding to these lies, just pay some attention to your books and it's historical creditability.
I wish you could just read about historicity of Jesus, Jesus myth theory, and Bible Textual criticism results.
If you just pay some effort to read on these topics instead of copy-pastes of myths about islam, you'll feel better.

All above topics are 100% created by Christians and depends on Christians sources only.

Reading this reply, do you @Crosstian think you passed Jesus's exam?
"But do this with gentleness and respect,"

'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

I think this quote of yours should be put here, not before starting the thread. It kind of defeats the purpose, if I understand the word "apology" correctly.


Baring the Cross
I write this verse 1 Pet. 3:15 below in full: ...

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

So far, I have been called "liar" and that what I have posted with citation doesn't exist, and that I merely "copy/paste", when in fact, what I have shared is truth, correctly sourced, and manually hand-typed.

I am not afraid of "allah's" terror(ism). I rightly fear JEHOVAH Elohiym, the true and living God. They have spoken evil of me, wrongly. I have answered their false accusations and charges with 'meekness and fear', and with documentation.

Thank you for your time. Feel free to go back over each of the posts and see for yourself, and judge righteous judgment.