I have tried looking into the roots of my parents religion. They didn't call themselves anything, but other people outside the religion referred to them as the 2by2's. This was because their preachers travelled and ministered in pairs like Jesus' disciples were supposed to do. They call themselves the friends or refer to their belief system as the "truth". Many of the things they believed were quite gnostic but not quite. I am baffled and cannot find anything much to understand how they started etc. I left the religion when I was 12 and my parents are dead so I can't ask questions from that source. I'm not sure they even knew the beginnings of their religion because they believed they were the original way Jesus and his disciples preached. They didn't hold much belief in the old testament, but the new testament guided them completely it seemed. Anyone?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Anyone heard of the 2 by 2's religion?
- Thread starter challupa
- Start date
Baydwin
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, that's a toughy. The preaching in pairs sounds like Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses, but if they were either of those you'd probably know about it. That they called themselves "friends" might mean they were Quakers or some variation on the Quaker theme.
That's all I can think from what you've said.
That's all I can think from what you've said.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Found this...
Religious cults and sects, doctrines and practices - Two-by-twos
I can't vouch for the source at all, but maybe it's a start.
Religious cults and sects, doctrines and practices - Two-by-twos
I can't vouch for the source at all, but maybe it's a start.
Thanks for the link WO! The following is the one that sounds closest to the one my parents were part of:
"There is another nameless group, much larger than the one just discussed, which also engages in various forms of spiritual and physical abuse. Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members. It was founded at the turn of the century by a Scottish coal miner named William Irvine who was later joined by Edward Cooney, an Irishman. In the early days, the group was referred to as the Cooneyites, and later became known both as the Two-by-Twos (because its itinerant preachers or workers travel in pairs) and the Nameless House Sect. The group deplores denominationalism and man-made doctrines. It identifies with no name and claims only to follow Jesus Christ.[1]
Former members, who often refer to it as the Truth, claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their wills can be broken. Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that
fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the work. Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion.[2]
Like many other abusive churches, the Two-by- Twos impose a restrictive and rigorous life-style on the membership. Women adherents shun makeup and wear long, uncut hair wrapped tightly in buns on the tops of their heads. Jewelry is proscribed, while plain dresses are the norm. Slacks, shorts, and sleeveless blouses are forbidden in public. They submit to the men of the group who tend to wear dark-colored clothes and carry black-covered King James Versions of the Bible. Marriages are performed by civil authorities only, since church workers do not register with state officials.[3]
Conformity to a strict life-style is expected of all children and young people in the Truth. They are discouraged from participating in after-school sports and other social activities. Their circle of friends does not extend beyond the group.
They often grow up ignorant and unaware of current affairs around them. One woman remembers taking her young son to the doctor who was astonished that the boy knew nothing about Big Bird or other Sesame Street characters. Another woman relates that her sons kindergarten teacher was shocked that he hadnt ever heard of Easter
[most Two-by-Two's do not observe Christmas or Easter]. This lack of awareness, culturally, religiously, politically, and socially, severely stunts their perceptions of the world around them
. Emotional withdrawal and social isolation are typical responses among children in the Truth which are carried forward into adulthood.[4] "
Not all of this is accurate, but it is pretty close. I was always allowed friends from school, but it was frowned on for sure. I basically rebelled real young and went to dances, movies etc. with friends but I always had to sleep over at their house to get any freedom. It was a system that made any kid that didn't agree with the beliefs, sneak around to be normal. We were not allowed to wear make up and had to wear dresses that were below the knees. Well I grew up in the 60' and 70's so that meant I had make up at school that I put on and then took off when I went home. I also wasn't allowed to swim or other things on Sunday. You had to wear dresses and go to church or other church activities. There was meetings sometimes 4 times a week. I was forced to go most of the time until around 14 when I outright refused. It didn't make for very good relations between my parents and myself (understatement).
After school affairs and sports were also frowned on, but because I was quite athletic, that soon became something I fought for too. I won that one for the most part. If they were in town games or events I could go, but I was never allowed to participate in out of town games or events. That always upset me. I was expected from a very early age to be quiet around adults. I definitely matched the description above of being a perfect minature adult when I was little. I know that many of the adults would refer to me as "wise beyond my years". When I did start to rebel though in my early teens, I'm sure they retracted that statement.
One thing I will say though to their credit was that they really take care of each other, even when someone leaves the faith. I have never been ostercized or anything, though I have had plenty of attempts to bring me "back into the fold" LOL. They are still friendly and kind and really do try to live their beliefs. It's just that their beliefs are so very rigid.
So WO thanks so much for finding that. It would be interesting to go back and see what the scottish coal miner based it on. I will keep searching. I now have more info to search with. Interesting stuff.
Not all of this is accurate, but it is pretty close. I was always allowed friends from school, but it was frowned on for sure. I basically rebelled real young and went to dances, movies etc. with friends but I always had to sleep over at their house to get any freedom. It was a system that made any kid that didn't agree with the beliefs, sneak around to be normal. We were not allowed to wear make up and had to wear dresses that were below the knees. Well I grew up in the 60' and 70's so that meant I had make up at school that I put on and then took off when I went home. I also wasn't allowed to swim or other things on Sunday. You had to wear dresses and go to church or other church activities. There was meetings sometimes 4 times a week. I was forced to go most of the time until around 14 when I outright refused. It didn't make for very good relations between my parents and myself (understatement).
After school affairs and sports were also frowned on, but because I was quite athletic, that soon became something I fought for too. I won that one for the most part. If they were in town games or events I could go, but I was never allowed to participate in out of town games or events. That always upset me. I was expected from a very early age to be quiet around adults. I definitely matched the description above of being a perfect minature adult when I was little. I know that many of the adults would refer to me as "wise beyond my years". When I did start to rebel though in my early teens, I'm sure they retracted that statement.
One thing I will say though to their credit was that they really take care of each other, even when someone leaves the faith. I have never been ostercized or anything, though I have had plenty of attempts to bring me "back into the fold" LOL. They are still friendly and kind and really do try to live their beliefs. It's just that their beliefs are so very rigid.
So WO thanks so much for finding that. It would be interesting to go back and see what the scottish coal miner based it on. I will keep searching. I now have more info to search with. Interesting stuff.
That's what I wondered initially about the Quakers because of the friends theme. But it didn't match it too well in other ways. There are alot of these people world wide. I would say more than the quote that WO gave in one of his links. They truly are everywhere.
Baydwin
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I wasn't very confident, just guessing really. WO seems to have struck gold there though.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Wow! I thought my fundamentalist upbringing was strict, but you really had it tough.
You seem well-adjusted now - glad to see you were able to emerge. I can only imagine the guilt and threats of divine retribution they must have used (and may still) when you parted ways.LOL yes, it was quite the journey. Good thing I started young. I think I am the only one in my early crowd that left. All my friends in the religion are still there and quite devout. So I quess they are right when they say parents in that religion break the children's will. Me, I just got mad. Go figure.Wow! I thought my fundamentalist upbringing was strict, but you really had it tough.
I was just reading that it was less than 100 years old when my parents got involved and they were told it was started on the shores of Galilee. Everyone thought that and the workers (preachers) never said anything. Deceitful or what. Not too surprised, but am I ever glad I left early because nothing they said added up for me.
Yes he sure did. I even found a chat room that is filled with people that have left them. It's kinda neat!
Well I have been reading the links and pages of stuff of those who were ex-communicated. I didn't even know people were able to be excommunicated from this religion!! I guess I spent so much time fighting them in order to have a normal life I didn't pay much attention to what was going on. I remember sitting in their meetings and stuff thinking how bogus and unloving alot of what they were preaching about was, but wow, nothing like this!
Also, their claim to fame was that the workers were penniless and dependent on the "friends" for everything. I also knew that they received money from the friends, but never really thought too much about how much. Looking back I realize it must have been huge amounts because even my parents when they died left thousands of dollars in their will to the workers. Wow!
This experience has actually been very validating for me. I always felt a little bad about fighting them so strongly to get away, now I am so glad I did. I do feel real sad and pretty mad at the same time, that my parents lived with the absolute belief that I was going to hell because I hadn't been baptized into that religion. That must have been hard for them to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there child would not be joining them in heaven. That was a main tenent of the church, that only their way was the truth. Ironically, it was this belief that turned me off of the church. It didn't seem right even to an 11 year old kid.
I always knew I grew up in a strict and bizarre belief system, but to find out it is actually only 100 years old (and was only about 50 when I was a kid) and it's founder died with a huge estate is quite insightful. When you are raised a certain way, you are too close to it to few it as abuse. I knew I didn't like it, but never made that leap. Now I agree, it was abuse. I am not resentful really, cause I did get away real young, but I feel sorry for those still in this religion.
Also they say they are nondenominational and always said that is how to know they were the true religion. There are documents showing registration with governments world wide registering a name. The Alberta document was actually an incorporation with worker's names signed to it. Names that I recall hearing my parents talk about. That's wild. There are also taped conversations with workers excommunicating elders which blew me away. Their only sin was allowing other excommunicated members into their homes or to come to their meetings after the workers had said they must be shut out (shunned). This information has been so freeing, in so many ways. Thanks Wandered Off for the links.
Also, their claim to fame was that the workers were penniless and dependent on the "friends" for everything. I also knew that they received money from the friends, but never really thought too much about how much. Looking back I realize it must have been huge amounts because even my parents when they died left thousands of dollars in their will to the workers. Wow!
This experience has actually been very validating for me. I always felt a little bad about fighting them so strongly to get away, now I am so glad I did. I do feel real sad and pretty mad at the same time, that my parents lived with the absolute belief that I was going to hell because I hadn't been baptized into that religion. That must have been hard for them to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there child would not be joining them in heaven. That was a main tenent of the church, that only their way was the truth. Ironically, it was this belief that turned me off of the church. It didn't seem right even to an 11 year old kid.
I always knew I grew up in a strict and bizarre belief system, but to find out it is actually only 100 years old (and was only about 50 when I was a kid) and it's founder died with a huge estate is quite insightful. When you are raised a certain way, you are too close to it to few it as abuse. I knew I didn't like it, but never made that leap. Now I agree, it was abuse. I am not resentful really, cause I did get away real young, but I feel sorry for those still in this religion.
Also they say they are nondenominational and always said that is how to know they were the true religion. There are documents showing registration with governments world wide registering a name. The Alberta document was actually an incorporation with worker's names signed to it. Names that I recall hearing my parents talk about. That's wild. There are also taped conversations with workers excommunicating elders which blew me away. Their only sin was allowing other excommunicated members into their homes or to come to their meetings after the workers had said they must be shut out (shunned). This information has been so freeing, in so many ways. Thanks Wandered Off for the links.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I remember seeing them mentioned on www.religioustolerance.org. It's been a long time, but if you looked at the site under Christian religions, you'd probably find something about them. I can't say I know anything at all about them, but I'd be skeptical of any site that describes them as a cult. Whenever I see that designation, I know its the work of somebody who just doesn't like the religion. (As you probably know, I see it a lot with respect to my own church.)
Last edited:
Since I found out the origins of the 2x2's, I have joined two forums, one being a 2x2 board and the other an ex 2x2 board. My dilemma is what do I do with the information that says the religion was formed in 1897 by William Irvine and is not what everyone has been told that it was from the beginning and a direct succession of apostles carried on since the time of Jesus. So many in that group were told this and it was the very reason why they joined it and were devoted to it. Some have been in it for 50+ years and likely don't know the origins because the workers (ministers) have never told them. I am finding out that some of the ex 2x2's that were workers didn't even know. There is obvious reasons they have kept this so hush hush, but what do I do with the information. I have kept in touch with some people I grew up with that are still in the religion. Do I tell them or do I just leave it alone and let them carry on. Many of the ex 2x2's I have heard talking seem to feel such freedom from getting out of the cult. It was painful and hard at the beginning, but they are so glad now that they got over the initial shock. What are your thoughts on this? Should I share the info or just keep quiet?
Thanks Katzpur. I didn't find them on there, but I have found other ones now. They are definitely a cult in my opinion. There is such an exclusive mindset that they truly do not believe that any other belief system has any hope of salvation. None nada. They preach this doctrine continually and people are so brainwashed they believe it wholeheartedly. It was this that made me leave and challenge their mindset when I was about 12 years old. Not an easy thing to do when so young and I was definitely not a popular person with the workers (ministers). They also receive a huge amount of money that is never reported and they are not a church so this is illegal and is basically money laundering.
Hi Mr. Cheese. The reason it's in the Gnosticism section is because when I asked the question I didn't know anything about it's origins. Many of the beliefs in this religion seemed to coincide with gnostic beliefs in many ways. That is why it was originally put in this section. As you can see it evolved into anything but. It is a cult with Gnostic similarities in some of their beliefs. It no longer belongs here knowing what I know now about the religion. Does that explain it for you?
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
ok sure...
my mother was part of a new agey gnostic occult group in the late 60's and early 70's...
I only discovered this after her death of course....
the Holy Order of Maans (HOOM)...
they still exist in off shoots....
This group was anything but new agey. It was as old school as it gets other then the Huterites or the Amish. They dressed like the Menonites in many ways. I had read some books on the Cathars and many of their beliefs were along the same lines as the 2x2's so that's why I went looking for it's roots. Found them and it started in 1897 so they lied to everyone. Go figure
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Challupa, here's what I found on www.regligioustolerance.org. It might give you a little bit more information about the beginnings of the movement than you already have.
Overview:
The world at large often calls them "Two by Twos" because of their tradition of sending pairs of missionaries to evangelize the "unsaved." They have also been called The Black Stockings, The Church Without a Name, Cooneyites, the Damnation Army, Dippers, Go Preachers, Irvinites, The Jesus-Way, Nameless House Church, The New Testament Church, No-Name Church, The No-Secters, The Non-Denominational Church, Pilgrims, The Reidites, The Secret Sect, Tramp Preachers, The Testimony, The Truth, The Saints, Truthers, The Way, and Workers.
However, they refer to each other simply as Christians and as Friends. They often call their group "The Jesus Way." They are an almost invisible group whose numbers may be in the tens or hundreds of thousands. No membership numbers are formally published.
They believe that the Gospel is only effectively taught if communicated on a person-to-person basis. Teams of two members of the same sex go into the world in pairs to spread the gospel. In many ways, they are replicating the followers of Jesus circa 30 CE. The author of the gospel of Mark described how Jesus sent his followers throughout Palestine:
History:
The movement was founded in William Irvine, (1863-1947) a Scotsman. Some sources say that he came from County Tipperary, Ireland; others say he was from Kilsyth, Scotland. He joined the Faith Mission in 1895, and traveled to rural areas of Scotland and Ireland as a lay evangelist. He left the organization in 1901, taking some young preachers with him, including George Walker, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and Irvine Weir. He was inspired by texts in Matthew and Luke and organized a group to continue itinerant preaching in the 20th century. Their first convention was held in Ireland in 1903. 70 followers attended. Irvine then left with two members to evangelize North America. Other pairs of workers were sent to Australia, China, Germany, New Zealand, South Africa and South America. The movement grew rapidly; 2,000 attended the 1910 convention in the UK. They called their spiritual path "The Truth" and "The Testimony." Believers accepted Irvine as the "Alpha Prophet" spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Acts 3:20-23.
In 1908, Irvine developed a two-tier membership structure, consisting of workers and ordinary members. The workers (a.k.a. senior brothers, senior servants) were full-time missionaries; the members typically worked at regular employment and supported the workers financially. Irvine also organized a system of overseers to have authority over all of the workers in a given geographical area. The existence of overseers was not revealed to the general membership.
Irvine developed some unusual doctrines. He taught that it might be possible for 2X2 members to travel to other planets and act as saviors of other civilizations. He identified his group with the remnant of 144,000 people mentioned in Revelation. He developed his "Omega Gospel, " or "Omega Truth" in which he taught that Christ had chosen him to announce that the end of the "age of Grace" was coming in 1914-AUG. After that date, no additional people could be saved. The "final judgement" would then follow. These beliefs were a direct challenge to the overseers and workers; if the group accepted the new doctrines, then the workers would have no further function to perform. A theological split over this prophecy developed. Irvine was ousted from the group in 1914-APR because, it was claimed, he had "lost the Lord's anointing." Since the time of Irvine's departure, the organization has been led by the overseers. In time, his leadership and even his existence were forgotten by many. The movement became less open to the public, and disappeared from common view.
Edward Cooney was a prominent worker in the original group. He apparently saw himself as a replacement for Irvine. He openly disagreed with certain doctrines, and with the necessity of holding conventions. Cooney proposed that the movement return to its original roots in which all members were workers. He suffered the same fate as Irvine: in 1928, he was excommunicated. He died at the age of 93 in 1961.
The Little Ones, (a.k.a. Friends, Message People):
Irvine moved to Jerusalem in 1918 to await Jesus' return. While there, he wrote about a half-million letters by hand to his former followers. About 400 followers were excommunicated from the main body along with Mr. Irvine. They became a separate group which has been called "Little Ones", "Friends" and "Message People." He taught that the Apostolic Age ceased in 1914. Along with it, he taught that the evangelical activities of the 2 by 2's should have ceased. His "friends" now spread the gospel as individuals. They witnessed to others as the chance arises.
"As war; famine; pestilence; plagues; drought; natural disasters; racialism; class war; economic failure occurs, and society as a whole decays, personal judgment will increase. That all that is happening on the Earth today is God and Jesus’ answer to what Satan and his followers have done to Jesus and His family, and to everyone God and Jesus ever sent."
They interpret Revelation 18:3 as a condemnation of organized religions.
Irvine died in Jerusalem in 1947. The friends continue as a small religious group, separate from the 2x2's.
Overview:
The world at large often calls them "Two by Twos" because of their tradition of sending pairs of missionaries to evangelize the "unsaved." They have also been called The Black Stockings, The Church Without a Name, Cooneyites, the Damnation Army, Dippers, Go Preachers, Irvinites, The Jesus-Way, Nameless House Church, The New Testament Church, No-Name Church, The No-Secters, The Non-Denominational Church, Pilgrims, The Reidites, The Secret Sect, Tramp Preachers, The Testimony, The Truth, The Saints, Truthers, The Way, and Workers.
However, they refer to each other simply as Christians and as Friends. They often call their group "The Jesus Way." They are an almost invisible group whose numbers may be in the tens or hundreds of thousands. No membership numbers are formally published.
They believe that the Gospel is only effectively taught if communicated on a person-to-person basis. Teams of two members of the same sex go into the world in pairs to spread the gospel. In many ways, they are replicating the followers of Jesus circa 30 CE. The author of the gospel of Mark described how Jesus sent his followers throughout Palestine:
Mark 6:7-12: "And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff-- no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts-- but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics. Also He said to them, 'In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!' So they went out and preached that people should repent." (NKJ)
One difference between the two-by-twos and Jesus' disciples is that Jesus instructed his followers to avoid Gentiles and the cities of the Samaritans (Matthew 10:5). The Gospel was to be spread to Jews only - to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6).
History:
The movement was founded in William Irvine, (1863-1947) a Scotsman. Some sources say that he came from County Tipperary, Ireland; others say he was from Kilsyth, Scotland. He joined the Faith Mission in 1895, and traveled to rural areas of Scotland and Ireland as a lay evangelist. He left the organization in 1901, taking some young preachers with him, including George Walker, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and Irvine Weir. He was inspired by texts in Matthew and Luke and organized a group to continue itinerant preaching in the 20th century. Their first convention was held in Ireland in 1903. 70 followers attended. Irvine then left with two members to evangelize North America. Other pairs of workers were sent to Australia, China, Germany, New Zealand, South Africa and South America. The movement grew rapidly; 2,000 attended the 1910 convention in the UK. They called their spiritual path "The Truth" and "The Testimony." Believers accepted Irvine as the "Alpha Prophet" spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Acts 3:20-23.
In 1908, Irvine developed a two-tier membership structure, consisting of workers and ordinary members. The workers (a.k.a. senior brothers, senior servants) were full-time missionaries; the members typically worked at regular employment and supported the workers financially. Irvine also organized a system of overseers to have authority over all of the workers in a given geographical area. The existence of overseers was not revealed to the general membership.
Irvine developed some unusual doctrines. He taught that it might be possible for 2X2 members to travel to other planets and act as saviors of other civilizations. He identified his group with the remnant of 144,000 people mentioned in Revelation. He developed his "Omega Gospel, " or "Omega Truth" in which he taught that Christ had chosen him to announce that the end of the "age of Grace" was coming in 1914-AUG. After that date, no additional people could be saved. The "final judgement" would then follow. These beliefs were a direct challenge to the overseers and workers; if the group accepted the new doctrines, then the workers would have no further function to perform. A theological split over this prophecy developed. Irvine was ousted from the group in 1914-APR because, it was claimed, he had "lost the Lord's anointing." Since the time of Irvine's departure, the organization has been led by the overseers. In time, his leadership and even his existence were forgotten by many. The movement became less open to the public, and disappeared from common view.
Edward Cooney was a prominent worker in the original group. He apparently saw himself as a replacement for Irvine. He openly disagreed with certain doctrines, and with the necessity of holding conventions. Cooney proposed that the movement return to its original roots in which all members were workers. He suffered the same fate as Irvine: in 1928, he was excommunicated. He died at the age of 93 in 1961.
The Little Ones, (a.k.a. Friends, Message People):
Irvine moved to Jerusalem in 1918 to await Jesus' return. While there, he wrote about a half-million letters by hand to his former followers. About 400 followers were excommunicated from the main body along with Mr. Irvine. They became a separate group which has been called "Little Ones", "Friends" and "Message People." He taught that the Apostolic Age ceased in 1914. Along with it, he taught that the evangelical activities of the 2 by 2's should have ceased. His "friends" now spread the gospel as individuals. They witnessed to others as the chance arises.
"As war; famine; pestilence; plagues; drought; natural disasters; racialism; class war; economic failure occurs, and society as a whole decays, personal judgment will increase. That all that is happening on the Earth today is God and Jesus’ answer to what Satan and his followers have done to Jesus and His family, and to everyone God and Jesus ever sent."
They interpret Revelation 18:3 as a condemnation of organized religions.
Irvine died in Jerusalem in 1947. The friends continue as a small religious group, separate from the 2x2's.
Last edited:
Katzpur, thanks for that. It had some info I hadn't read before too. I was initially blown away by the deciet, yet I should have known. I rejected this religion very young and I wish my parents had been able to know the origins. I don't think they would have been part of it if they had. There is so much I would like to say to them right now, and I haven't been part of it for 40+ years. I am quite angry at the lies and the hipocrasy and yet I should have known. Ah well. So be it!
[email protected]
New Member
Hi there
i was brought up in the 2 x 2's religion and never felt part of it and stopped going when i was 18 when i could make my own decisions. My family are still very much part of it and dont like to talk to me about it. my brother has done much research and has a lot of info i am sure you would be inerested to read. if you are interested i'll get for you.
Iona Fietze
i was brought up in the 2 x 2's religion and never felt part of it and stopped going when i was 18 when i could make my own decisions. My family are still very much part of it and dont like to talk to me about it. my brother has done much research and has a lot of info i am sure you would be inerested to read. if you are interested i'll get for you.
Iona Fietze