Anti-Mormon Claims Backfiring

[Apex]

I saw this video over at a famous atheist blog about why this girl is no longer Mormon. I decided to watch it even I could probably have listed her reasons before I even hit play, but I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt. Turns out I was right. It was mainly your run of the mill anti-mormonTM claims about what we actually "believe" mixed with a couple other things (apparently "******* crazy" is reason not to be Mormon). But then I thought about it again and realized the irony, these were your general run of the mill anti-mormon claims, created by evangelical Christians, being repeated by an atheist. The arguments that mainstream Christian's use to get people out of the LDS Church and into mainstream Christianity actually helped this person out of the LDS Church and into atheism. Anyway, I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[Katzpur]

I saw this over at a famous atheist blog about why this girl is no longer Mormon. I decided to watch it even I could probably have listed her reasons before I even hit play, but I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt. Turns out I was right. It was mainly your run of the mill anti-mormonTM claims about what we actually "believe" mixed with a couple other things (apparently "******* crazy" is reason not to be Mormon). But then I thought about it again and realized the irony, these were your general run of the mill anti-mormon claims, created by evangelical Christians, being repeated by an atheist. The arguments that mainstream Christian's use to get people out of the LDS Church and into mainstream Christianity actually helped this person out of the LDS Church and into atheism. Anyway, I thought it was pretty funny.

Man, what a piece of work. I wondering if she thought saying everthing was so 'f-ing' this and 'f-ing' that made her look like more of an authority. But what else can you do when your vocabulary is as limited as hers was.

Your post actually brings to mind a poster I know on another forum. He was in a bishopric when he finally decided he wanted to leave the Church and become -- you guessed it -- an atheist. Now the weird thing was that all of the evangelical Christians on the forum were all over him, patting him on the back, congratulating him on his decision to leave Mormonism, and telling him what a smart move it was. It just went right over their heads that he not only had rejected Mormonism, he had also rejected Christianity, the Abrahamic God and theism in general! When I pointed this out to them, some of them actually responded by saying, "Oh, he just thinks he doesn't believe in Christ any more. He really does. He just needs some time to realize it."

 

[Watchmen]

I think it's natural for someone leaving the Church to become an atheist, especially if the person was a life-long member. After coming to the conclusion that everything you were taught and believed is not true, it may be hard to believe in anything. The easy route might be to wipe the slate clean (atheism . . . maybe agnostic) and go from there.

 

[Katzpur]

I think it's natural for someone leaving the Church to become an atheist, especially if the person was a life-long member. After coming to the conclusion that everything you were taught and believed is not true, it may be hard to believe in anything. The easy route might be to wipe the slate clean (atheism . . . maybe agnostic) and go from there.

You know, for a long time, I couldn't understand that viewpoint, but I am starting to see how it makes sense. For me, a big part of why I'm LDS stems from the fact that I can't accept some of the non-LDS (but Christian) beliefs -- such as the Trinity (which is just one of several). If I were ever to leave the Church, I can't see myself joining another Christian Church where I would have to embrace a doctrine I vehemently disagree with. Having rejected Christianity, I'm not sure where I'd go. I can't see becoming Jewish or Muslim and I really don't feel any kind of pull at all towards any of the eastern religions. So even though I do occasionally have issues with the Church, I think I'm in the best place I could be for me.

 

[madhatter85]

absolutely a piece of work. I also looked at her youtube channel. She is a sex-addicted freak. My suspicion is that she is using these excuses to not believe because she wants to be promiscuous.

 

[Apex]

My suspicion is that she is using these excuses to not believe because she wants to be promiscuous.

I kind of doubt that...

 

[madhatter85]

I kind of doubt that...

have you seen her videos?

http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18

http://www.youtube.com/user/lacigreen

especially the second one.

 

[Apex]

have you seen her videos?

http://www.youtube.com/user/gogreen18

http://www.youtube.com/user/lacigreen

especially the second one.

Your reasoning is about as bad as hers in the video where she talks about why shes is no longer Mormon. Just because she likes something you do not agree with does not mean she left religion just to do it.

 

[zomg]

I watched the video. Everything she said was spot on.

 

[Katzpur]

I watched the video. Everything she said was spot on.

If that's the case, you need to ask to have your name removed from the Church's records. Why would you want to straddle the fence? A "New Order Mormon" is nothing more than a Mormon who wants to leave but is afraid to.

 

[Apex]

I watched the video. Everything she said was spot on.

Really? Then why does the Church hold higher education in such esteem as to teach that going into debt to receive it is okay if all they really want is for its members to "obey, obey, obey"? If all you want are a bunch of mindless drones to blindly follow you the last thing you should do is tell them to all go get college educations and, even further, advanced degrees (Masters, Phd).

From the video:

To do what you think, and what you feel, is sinful and wrong.

If you think this is spot on then you must have been going to some other LDS Church than the one I know. Some leaders may come off as if they actually mean this, but if you believe it then its your own fault.

Her reasons were a bunch of bull that has been spouted by anti-Mormons for years and have been thoroughly refuted many times over.

 

[zomg]

If that's the case, you need to ask to have your name removed from the Church's records. Why would you want to straddle the fence? A "New Order Mormon" is nothing more than a Mormon who wants to leave but is afraid to.

I'll do what I want, thank you. I've explained many times why removing my name at this time wouldn't be a good idea.

Really? Then why does the Church hold higher education in such esteem as to teach that going into debt to receive it is okay if all they really want is for its members to "obey, obey, obey"? If all you want are a bunch of mindless drones to blindly follow you the last thing you should do is tell them to all go get college educations and, even further, advanced degrees (Masters, Phd).

Since when does a higher education have anything to do with obeying the prophets? This makes no sense to me and doesn't disprove anything.

If you think this is spot on then you must have been going to some other LDS Church than the one I know. Some leaders may come off as if they actually mean this, but if you believe it then its your own fault.

So it's my fault if I follow the words of a "prophet, seer and revelator"? If I can't listen to one of them in case they don't mean what they say, then I suppose not listening to any of them is the only correct answer

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God." Improvement Era, June 1945.

Her reasons were a bunch of bull that has been spouted by anti-Mormons for years and have been thoroughly refuted many times over.

I disagree. From what I remember of the video she brought up sexism, racism, temple rituals and early church teachings of ruling over your own planet. These are great observations/arguments that still stand, in my opinion.

 

[Apex]

Since when does a higher education have anything to do with obeying the prophets? This makes no sense to me and doesn't disprove anything.

Generally a higher education correlates with being able to think for yourself.

So it's my fault if I follow the words of a "prophet, seer and revelator"? If I can't listen to one of them in case they don't mean what they say, then I suppose not listening to any of them is the only correct answer

We are also taught to take what they say and decide for ourselves if it is true. Just because it comes out of their mouths does not make it binding. You of all people should know this! The only case I can really think of where this does not apply is doctrinal issues.

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God." Improvement Era, June 1945.

Oh, how cute. You can cherry pick with random quotes from over 6 decades ago. I hope you yourself have the Improvement Era from June 1945. Otherwise it is plagarisim if you do not give your secondary (and I assume anti-Mormon) source where you got the quote from.

I disagree. From what I remember of the video she brought up sexism, racism, temple rituals and early church teachings of ruling over your own planet.

My point still stands. Some people will see sexism in everything they disagree with, regardless of it is there or not. The racism thing is a dead horse. Why do people even care about our temple rituals? And ruling over your own planet is one of those cherry picking things anti-Mormons love to bring up with obscure quotes they twist around to suite their purposes. All the while never acknowledging the quotes they are using, and especially the false context they attach to them, are never taught in church as doctrine.

These are great observations/arguments that still stand, in my opinion.

In that case you have been fooled.

 

[Oneatatime]

Really? Then why does the Church hold higher education in such esteem as to teach that going into debt to receive it is okay if all they really want is for its members to "obey, obey, obey"? If all you want are a bunch of mindless drones to blindly follow you the last thing you should do is tell them to all go get college educations and, even further, advanced degrees (Masters, Phd).

I'm not a Mormon but I went to university with a Mornon who studied for a sience degree and failed the degree because she was unable to modify those beliefs which were inconsistant with current scientific knowledge. She believed that the Mormon Bible was the literal truth and her beliefs were largely consistant with those held by YEC. I don't know if this is common amongst Mormons or not but if it is then it supports the view that Mormons have a tendency to believe what they are told without applying critical thinking or being willing to change those beliefs in light of new evidence, at least where the natural sciences are concerned.

 

[Apex]

I'm not a Mormon but I went to university with a Mornon who studied for a sience degree and failed the degree because she was unable to modify those beliefs which were inconsistant with current scientific knowledge.

It is very possible to be a Mormon and believe current scientific knowledge. There are no official doctrines that make this impossible.

She believed that the Mormon Bible was the literal truth and her beliefs were largely consistant with those held by YEC.

There is no "Mormon Bible". And the stance that the Bible and Book of Mormon are "literal" is exactly the opposite position of the Church. We believe somethings to be literal, and somethings to not be. While some (misguided in my opinion) Mormons hold to YEC beliefes there is no official stance on the issue. You will find (in my experience) most Mormons believe the Earth to be billions of years, the same with LDS Scholars.

I don't know if this is common amongst Mormons or not but if it is then it supports the view that Mormons have a tendency to believe what they are told without applying critical thinking or being willing to change those beliefs in light of new evidence, at least where the natural sciences are concerned.

In my experience it is not common.

 

[Katzpur]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God." Improvement Era, June 1945.

LOL! Honestly, I can't even believe you would dredge up that old article. It was a home teaching message from 65 years ago, for crying out loud. It wasn't even from the First Presidency, but from some guy on the correlation committee. The fact that you even mentioned it is laughable. You wouldn't have that issue of the Improvement Era in your personal library, now would you? You pulled that off of some anti-Mormon website and are using it to support the position you now hold. It is definitely not what the church leadership is advising us to do. It is quite the opposite in fact.

I don't personally care whether you take your name off the Church records or not, but you're not LDS any more in terms of your beliefs. So why can't you just leave it alone? Why fight against it? My sister left the Church 40 years ago and just moved on with her life. My son and daughter (ages 31 and 28) haven't set foot in an LDS Church in years, but they don't feel th need to bash the Church. You need to grow up and find a place where you'll be happy. Choose any path you want, but leave those of us alone who are on the path we have chosen.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** Staff Advisory ***​

Please remember that this thread thread is in the DIR Forum - only discussion is allowed here, not debate.


For those who would like to debate this issue with other Mormons, the Same Faith Debates forum is open to you.

Thanks!

 

[tomato1236]

Point 1: People are taught from a young age not to think for themselves.
Point 2: The church is sexist. Expects women to bear a lot of childrens.
Point 3: The church is too white.
Point 4: The church hides its actual beliefs, which are weird. Earth is Adam's planet.
Point 5: No gay marriage.
Point 6: The temple is very cultish.
Point 7: People who aren't mormon can't go to weddings.
Point 8: Anti Progress, anti thinking.

Well she's entitled to her opinion but she's full of bologna. On the other hand she's pretty attractive, which helps her credibility.

 

[AfterGlow]

I don't know if this is common amongst Mormons or not but if it is then it supports the view that Mormons have a tendency to believe what they are told without applying critical thinking or being willing to change those beliefs in light of new evidence, at least where the natural sciences are concerned.

It's silly to make sweeping generalisations like this, people are individuals, just because some Mormons may act like the girl you knew doesn't mean it's a "tendancy" that Mormons have in any greater abundance than other faith groups, or non-faith groups.

 

[tomato1236]

Your reasoning is about as bad as hers in the video where she talks about why shes is no longer Mormon. Just because she likes something you do not agree with does not mean she left religion just to do it.

Actually I think he has a point. In my experience working with inactive and apostate members as a missionary, except in a few cases where offense was the reason given (and even then, offense was often a cover for behavioral reasons), every case involved the adoption of a behavior or lifestyle incompatible with LDS teachings. When you sin and feel guilt, there are two roads to take. Some have faith in Christ and repent, changing the behavior and trusting the forgiveness. Others feel the guilt, don't want to change, and/or don't believe there is forgiveness. In this case the only option is to discredit the institution that represents the moral law broken, and the God who endorses it.

So it sounds petty to assume that this girl loves casual sex more than religion, and it may not be our place to make that judgement, but based on my experience, I would certainly be willing to bet money that she experimented with premarital sex prior to falling away from the church. Getting busy with your friends before marriage is not a bad experience, carnally speaking.