Animals sacrificed do not take the punishment or pay the price for sins

[Soapy]

I have no idea what it was supposed to be for since I was never a Christian or a Jew, and I don't know the Bible very well...

However, I do have an opinion and that opinion is that animal sacrifices had nothing to do with what God needed or required. I consider it completely idiotic and cruel to sacrifice innocent animals for some idiotic religious belief, and that is one reason why I think the OT is only the words of men, and has nothing to do with God. Moreover, I think the whole idea of having to sacrifice any human or animal to pay a debt for our sins is a false belief, nothing that God ever wanted or required.

The only thing that you said in your post is the last sentence.

It is true that God DID NOT WANT either animal or human sacrifice … He did nog desire anyone to sin and have to pay the penalty for such grievous act:

• “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.” (Psalm 40:6)

Yes, it is written as you said. So why do you doubt the rest of what is written?

GOD desired all mankind to be righteous, holy, and sinless. It was the selfish and wrongful desire of man, and in particular, adam (and Eve), that brought the need for a sacrifice.

And, regarding animal sacrifice; God CREATED all things and GAVE LIFE to sons in the form of a Spirit in them. God can raise up living things from inanimate stone … if he desires. I don’t think you should worry about animals being used as a sacrifice INSTEAD of a human Being…

Animals do not go through a resurrection because animals do not sin nor are they have sin attributed to them since the only law they know is that of survival and breeding. They do nog build permanently nor expect to live permanently and they do not worship God. They do hold themselves within the guidelines of the animal world and few stray from it. They are in general fear of Man whom God has put as rulers over them and no animal tries to usurp that rulership.

The main thing is that YOU are attempting to usurp the righteous rulership of almighty God by trying to tell GOD what and how He should rule His kingdom.

 

[Alien826]

They are in general fear of Man whom God has put as rulers over them and no animal tries to usurp that rulership.

Tell that to a Great White shark.

 

[Trailblazer]

The only thing that you said in your post is the last sentence.

It is true that God DID NOT WANT either animal or human sacrifice … He did nog desire anyone to sin and have to pay the penalty for such grievous act:

• “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.” (Psalm 40:6)

Yes, it is written as you said. So why do you doubt the rest of what is written?

I do not reject everything that is written in the Bible, just some of it.

GOD desired all mankind to be righteous, holy, and sinless.

I do not reject that, I believe it.

It was the selfish and wrongful desire of man, and in particular, adam (and Eve), that brought the need for a sacrifice.

I do reject that, I do not believe it.
I do not believe that there was ever an Adam and Eve who ate a piece of fruit from a tree. I believe that was only an allegory.

The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe in the cross sacrifice and the Jesus sacrificed Himself for the sins of humanity, but I absolutely do not believe that Adam and Eve eating a piece of fruit from a tree brought on a need for Jesus' sacrifice! I believe that is a man-made false Christian doctrine.

And, regarding animal sacrifice; God CREATED all things and GAVE LIFE to sons in the form of a Spirit in them. God can raise up living things from inanimate stone … if he desires. I don’t think you should worry about animals being used as a sacrifice INSTEAD of a human Being…

I worry and protest animal sacrifices because I care about animals.

Animals do not go through a resurrection because animals do not sin nor are they have sin attributed to them since the only law they know is that of survival and breeding. They do nog build permanently nor expect to live permanently and they do not worship God. They do hold themselves within the guidelines of the animal world and few stray from it. They are in general fear of Man whom God has put as rulers over them and no animal tries to usurp that rulership.

Nobody knows what happens to the animal spirit after their bodies die, nobody even knows what happens to the human spirit (soul), they just hold beliefs.

Humans do not go through a resurrection as most Christians believe it will happen, they go through a transformation from living in a physical body and then they continue to live in a spiritual body.

The main thing is that YOU are attempting to usurp the righteous rulership of almighty God by trying to tell GOD what and how He should rule His kingdom.

I am not doing that. I am only stating what I believe and what I do not believe.
I do not believe that God is ruling His Kingdom the way Christians believe He is. Then again, not even Christians can agree on that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think this is an issue that can be troubling for many who feel very strongly about substitution. Its what they've heard all their lives, and I don't think its an issue that can be forced or announced from towers. Consider the passage in Romans 5 "Christ died for the ungodly," "Christ died for us," "justified by his blood," and other such phrases:

[Rom 5:6-11 NIV] 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

"...saved through his life" is another one that is difficult to discern. I cannot blame anyone for thinking its about substitution what with preachers always saying it is. We often go with whatever requires the least amount of work, the least amount of effort, the least amount of frustration. The easiest thing is to let someone else tell us what it all means.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It means, that generally (I read it quickly and may have missed some detail) what was described was in accordance with my understanding.

I'm impressed with your understanding. So, again, bravo.
What was to me new and interesting information was:

• A concept superficially similar to the biblical scapegoat is attested in two ritual texts of the 24th century BC archived at Ebla.[14] They were connected with ritual purification on the occasion of the king's wedding. In them, a she-goat with a silver bracelet hung from her neck was driven forth into the wasteland of "Alini"; "we" in the report of the ritual involves the whole community. Such "elimination rites", in which an animal, without confession of sins, is the vehicle of evils (not sins) that are chased from the community are widely attested in the Ancient Near East.[15]
• Ancient Greeks practiced scapegoating rituals in exceptional times based on the belief that the repudiation of one or two individuals would save the whole community.[16][17] Scapegoating was practiced with different rituals across ancient Greece for different reasons but was mainly used during extraordinary circumstances such as famine, drought, or plague.[16][17] The scapegoat would usually be an individual of lower society such as a criminal, slave, or poor person and was referred to as the pharmakos, katharma or peripsima.[16][17]

This paints the scape-goat as a well established practice reframed for Israel rather than some Judaic peculiarity .

 

[Alien826]

I'm impressed with your understanding. So, again, bravo.
What was to me new and interesting information was:

• A concept superficially similar to the biblical scapegoat is attested in two ritual texts of the 24th century BC archived at Ebla.[14] They were connected with ritual purification on the occasion of the king's wedding. In them, a she-goat with a silver bracelet hung from her neck was driven forth into the wasteland of "Alini"; "we" in the report of the ritual involves the whole community. Such "elimination rites", in which an animal, without confession of sins, is the vehicle of evils (not sins) that are chased from the community are widely attested in the Ancient Near East.[15]
• Ancient Greeks practiced scapegoating rituals in exceptional times based on the belief that the repudiation of one or two individuals would save the whole community.[16][17] Scapegoating was practiced with different rituals across ancient Greece for different reasons but was mainly used during extraordinary circumstances such as famine, drought, or plague.[16][17] The scapegoat would usually be an individual of lower society such as a criminal, slave, or poor person and was referred to as the pharmakos, katharma or peripsima.[16][17]

This paints the scape-goat as a well established practice reframed for Israel rather than some Judaic peculiarity .

That is very interesting. I have to admit that I read the article looking for information on the Jewish practice and missed that. Thank you for pointing it out.

I must say that, from a modern pov I find the idea that guilt (sin, evil) can be transferred from a group to an individual highly dubious. No doubt the people of that time would disagree with me. Different culture, different beliefs. I assume it is reflected in the Christian idea of the sacrificial lamb (Jesus). I have always seen that as, well, silly. Call me provincial, I guess.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I must say that, from a modern pov I find the idea that guilt (sin, evil) can be transferred from a group to an individual highly dubious.

Of course it's highly dubious ........ in 2024 C.E.

But, in millennia past, such things gave societies a means of navigating the unknown. Rituals got us from then to now.

 

[Soapy]

Tell that to a Great White shark.

Sharks operate on an instinct that has changed little over millions of years.

Their role in the cycle of life is to clean up the ocean of large flesh that could cause bad things if left to rot. This includes flesh that is living but is on the brink of dying… the instinct is that if an animal is flopping about - sending ‘dying’ signals -into the sea then it is fair game for food. Away from this, there are other animals that serve as food when nothing ‘easy / flopping / awkward’ is in easy reach.

A human, flopping around (sometimes called ‘Swimming’) can attract a shark because the sound and actions are likened to those of a dying of suck sea creature. The shark doesn’t care…. Weird things have been found in great white shark stomach where the shark mistook it for flesh … Despite millions of years of existence, sharks aren’t all that bright… determined… but not bright!!!

Also, from under the sea, a surfer’s surf board can look up like a Seal… what the ‘not do bright’ great white can mistake it for… their greatest delicacy!!

So, in the case of a human… it’s OUR FAULT - not the sharks!!!!

Moreover, MAN has greater ways of protecting themselves from shark attack than any other animal living.

Even LIONS fear man… especially adult humans. It is old, starving, lions that might attack unprotected children who cannot fight it off … The lion attacks a child becausd it cannot catch its real prey and becomes desperate - or is surprised by UNWARY child (or weak adult) who doesn’t withdraw or avoid the lion … remember that the lion will be making growling noises well before the attack….

One other thing… Man TEASES DANGEROUS ANIMAL… we taunt them and even tempt them with dummy human shaped bodies so we can film them attacking and laugh at them doing so…. If you teach an animal to attack ‘a human’… will if not eventually attack a real human???

 

[Soapy]

I do not reject everything that is written in the Bible, just some of it.

I do not reject that, I believe it.

I do reject that, I do not believe it.
I do not believe that there was ever an Adam and Eve who ate a piece of fruit from a tree. I believe that was only an allegory.

The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe in the cross sacrifice and the Jesus sacrificed Himself for the sins of humanity, but I absolutely do not believe that Adam and Eve eating a piece of fruit from a tree brought on a need for Jesus' sacrifice! I believe that is a man-made false Christian doctrine.

I worry and protest animal sacrifices because I care about animals.

Nobody knows what happens to the animal spirit after their bodies die, nobody even knows what happens to the human spirit (soul), they just hold beliefs.

Humans do not go through a resurrection as most Christians believe it will happen, they go through a transformation from living in a physical body and then they continue to live in a spiritual body.

I am not doing that. I am only stating what I believe and what I do not believe.
I do not believe that God is ruling His Kingdom the way Christians believe He is. Then again, not even Christians can agree on that.

It is fine to initially state ‘what you believe’… But after being shown the truth you CANNOT continue to ‘believe what YOU want to believe’. That would be exactly:

• “GRIEVING THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH’

which is to be, ‘Turning the truth into a lie!’.

GOD does not see things the way mankind does, in general. Man sees things in ways that PROFIT him. God sets out His laws to BENEFIT mankind.

Profiting leads to deceit and greed, division, murder, and death……

Benefitting leads to harmony, Grace, lovingness, unity, righteousness, and life!

You love animals…. For sure no one should ABUSE animals. Seeking to, and actually, abusing animals smacks of a deeper problem IN THE HUMAN BEING doing so. So yes, there are other humans who oppose abusers of animals. God instituted CARE of animals called ‘Husbandry’ (in fact, it applies to humans as well - different from Nurture).

Yes, thanks to God for ones like yourself ——-

But do not believe that care for animals comes above, let alone even equal to, God’s care for mankind. Check the scriptures and try to find even a single verse or theme where an animal is ‘cared for’ above a human. The event in which a powerful angel told Ahab that he would sooner forgive ahab’s DONKEY than Ahab for not turning back from a mad bad extremely unwise thing that Ahab was attempting to beat the donkey for refusing to do IS TO SHOW that Ahab had fallen in such a sin such even the donkey would be preferred to be saved than a man who is a marred ‘Image of God’. The Angel had more compassion on an animal than the human, Ahab, because Ahab’s sin was so grave:

• God
• Man
• Angels
• Animals
• Insects
• Microbes
• All inanimate things

 

[Niatero]

What I was thinking when I started this thread was that the idea of Jesus substituting himself in our place to take the punishment or pay the price for our sins has nothing to do with God's purposes in his prescriptions for sacrifices, but I'm not denying that Jesus sacrificed himself to save us from our sins. I think he did, but not in that way at all. He lived a life that he knew would end in the way it did, for the purpose of freeing all people from slavery to their passions.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is fine to initially state ‘what you believe’… But after being shown the truth you CANNOT continue to ‘believe what YOU want to believe’. That would be exactly:

• “GRIEVING THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH’

which is to be, ‘Turning the truth into a lie!’.

Who says that what what you believe is the TRUTH and what I believe is not? Only YOU.

 

[Soapy]

Who says that what what you believe is the TRUTH and what I believe is not? Only YOU.

The truth says so. The truth convicts you.

I just told you that it’s ok to initially believe what you want to believe - but once shown the truth you cannot continue - in claimed innocence, or by insistence - that claim that what you believe IS the truth. It turns THE TRUTH into a lie (that the truth is false!!!?) and the ‘lie’ is truth???!!!

Tell me, Jesus is a man born holy and sinless by means of the spirit of God overshadowing the Virgin Mary. This man is the replacement for the original sinless and holy man, Adam, who sinned and fell from God’s grace. For this reason, Jesus Christ is called:

• ‘The Second Adam’

and

• ‘The Last Adam’

What do make of the above statements? Why, in your view, is Jesus called, the first/last Adam?

 

[Wandering Monk]

So, Leviticus 16:32, 33 instructs the priest to '‘And the priest whom he doth anoint, and whose hand he doth consecrate to act as priest instead of his father, hath made atonement, and hath put on the linen garments, the holy garments; 33and he hath made atonement [for] the holy sanctuary; and [for] the tent of meeting, even [for] the altar he doth make atonement; yea, for the priests, and for all the people of the assembly he maketh atonement.''

So did the sanctuary and the altar sin?

 

[jimb]

So, Leviticus 16:32, 33 instructs the priest to '‘And the priest whom he doth anoint, and whose hand he doth consecrate to act as priest instead of his father, hath made atonement, and hath put on the linen garments, the holy garments; 33and he hath made atonement [for] the holy sanctuary; and [for] the tent of meeting, even [for] the altar he doth make atonement; yea, for the priests, and for all the people of the assembly he maketh atonement.''

So did the sanctuary and the altar sin?

Leviticus 16:29-34,: New English Translation (NET) “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner who lives in your midst, for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before the Lord. It is to be a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must humble yourselves. It is a perpetual statute.

“The priest who is anointed and ordained to act as high priest in place of his father is to make atonement. He is to put on the linen garments, the holy garments, and he is to purify the Most Holy Place, he is to purify the Meeting Tent and the altar, and he is to make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. This is to be a perpetual statute for you to make atonement for the Israelites for all their sins once a year.” So he did just as the Lord had commanded Moses."

I recommend that you read a translation other then the King James Bible, as it is too easily misunderstood.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me, Jesus is a man born holy and sinless by means of the spirit of God overshadowing the Virgin Mary. This man is the replacement for the original sinless and holy man, Adam, who sinned and fell from God’s grace. For this reason, Jesus Christ is called:

• ‘The Second Adam’

and

• ‘The Last Adam’

What do make of the above statements? Why, in your view, is Jesus called, the first/last Adam?

I'd need to see the verses where Jesus is called the Second Adam and the Last Adam.

I believe there have been various religious cycles since mankind was created. Within each cycle there were many different Prophets and religions. The cycle of religion began with Adam and culminated with Muhammad is called the Adamic Cycle, or the Prophetic Cycle. That cycle lasted about 12,350 years. There were many cycles that preceded Adam but they are too remote in history to know anything about.

Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets. Muslims believe that means he was the last Prophet but I believe that means He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. Baha'u'llah was another Prophet came after Muhammad and ushered in a new cycle of religion called the Age of Fulfillment. This cycle of religion will last no less than 500,000 years. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the mid-19th century are the result of the inception of this new cycle. We are living in a new age. The previous age ended when Baha'u'llah appeared on earth.
Maybe that is why Jesus said the following:

Matthew 28:20
New King James Version

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [a]Amen.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Leviticus 16:29-34,: New English Translation (NET) “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner who lives in your midst, for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before the Lord. It is to be a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must humble yourselves. It is a perpetual statute.

“The priest who is anointed and ordained to act as high priest in place of his father is to make atonement. He is to put on the linen garments, the holy garments, and he is to purify the Most Holy Place, he is to purify the Meeting Tent and the altar, and he is to make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. This is to be a perpetual statute for you to make atonement for the Israelites for all their sins once a year.” So he did just as the Lord had commanded Moses."

I recommend that you read a translation other then the King James Bible, as it is too easily misunderstood.

A literal translation of the original Hebrew:

 

[Soapy]

I'd need to see the verses where Jesus is called the Second Adam and the Last Adam.

I believe there have been various religious cycles since mankind was created. Within each cycle there were many different Prophets and religions. The cycle of religion began with Adam and culminated with Muhammad is called the Adamic Cycle, or the Prophetic Cycle. That cycle lasted about 12,350 years. There were many cycles that preceded Adam but they are too remote in history to know anything about.

Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets. Muslims believe that means he was the last Prophet but I believe that means He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. Baha'u'llah was another Prophet came after Muhammad and ushered in a new cycle of religion called the Age of Fulfillment. This cycle of religion will last no less than 500,000 years. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the mid-19th century are the result of the inception of this new cycle. We are living in a new age. The previous age ended when Baha'u'llah appeared on earth.
Maybe that is why Jesus said the following:

Matthew 28:20
New King James Version

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [a]Amen.

This is surprising to me… you mean that you don’t know that Jesus is called, ‘The second Adam’ and ‘The Last Adam’….

Do you not read the New Testament?

Anyway, just Google it and see for yourself - it’s quite a clear set of verses.

But just tell me what you imagine is meant by ‘Second…’ and ‘Last…’ Adam!!

Here is a tip: The FIRST Adam was a man born (a body given life / enlivened) holy and sinless by means of the Spirit of God: “God breathed the Spirit of life into the body of Adam; And the man became a living Soul”

 

[jimb]

A literal translation of the original Hebrew:

View attachment 90408

Clearly you know nothing about the art/science of translation. A translator has to primarily consider the meaning of the language rather than a meaningless "wooden" translation.

What does "of meeting for the tabernacle and the Holy Sanctuary for Then he shall make atonement the people all for the priests For he shall make atonement the for altar and he shall make atonement of the assembly" actually mean???

The NET and other translations make the meaning of the word clear: "purify". The idea of a structure sinning is nonsense!

 

[Trailblazer]

This is surprising to me… you mean that you don’t know that Jesus is called, ‘The second Adam’ and ‘The Last Adam’….

Do you not read the New Testament?

No, I do not read it unless I am looking for something because of a conversation I am having with a Christian.

Anyway, just Google it and see for yourself - it’s quite a clear set of verses.

But just tell me what you imagine is meant by ‘Second…’ and ‘Last…’ Adam!!

I know what Christians believe, that Adam was the first man and Jesus was the Second and Last Adam.

The Apostle Paul tells us in his first letter to the church in Corinth, “The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

What does it mean that Jesus is the second Adam / last Adam? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is the second Adam / last Adam? In what ways is Jesus like, and not like, Adam?

www.gotquestions.org

I do not believe that Adam was the first man. Humans have existed a lot longer than 6,000 years, for at least 200,000 years.

I believe that Adam was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. I believe that Jesus was another Prophet who came during the Adamic Cycle of religion, but Jesus was not the last Prophet. Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion.

Here is a tip: The FIRST Adam was a man born (a body given life / enlivened) holy and sinless by means of the Spirit of God: “God breathed the Spirit of life into the body of Adam; And the man became a living Soul”

So you believe that Adam was sinless until he ate the apple and caused the fall of humanity?
I already know that is what Christians believe but I do not believe it.

I believe that Adam fell, but not because he ate an apple.

What Adam did, how he caused the fall of humanity:

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 123-124

What Christ did to save humanity:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

 

[Wandering Monk]

Clearly you know nothing about the art/science of translation. A translator has to primarily consider the meaning of the language rather than a meaningless "wooden" translation.

What does "of meeting for the tabernacle and the Holy Sanctuary for Then he shall make atonement the people all for the priests For he shall make atonement the for altar and he shall make atonement of the assembly" actually mean???

The NET and other translations make the meaning of the word clear: "purify". The idea of a structure sinning is nonsense!

You are showing YOUR ignorance here. Hebrew is written and read right to left. Try reading this verse from right to left. The clusters of English words below the Hebrew text are read left to right.