An Unpublished Manuscript & Book of Mormon

[Christ's Lamb]

I have recently purchased an unpublished manuscript written by one S. Spolding. It states it is from the early 1800s. It starts off by decribing how the author was investigating indian mounds, then he discovered a set of brass plates and "written on them were histories of glorious men who lived in the days yore." But one set of plates in particular caught the mans eyes. It then descripes a story of a man named "Nephi" who travels with his people from Israel to America to escape Jerusalem before the flood. The manuscript later goes on to describe how the tribes settled America and how the people split into diffrent groups and wars braking out among them.

The story has huge similarities to the Book of Mormon. It is nearly identical to the Books of Alma and Ether, along with parts of Mosiah and Helaman in the Book of Mormon. By identical, I mean whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes.

I'm just wondering, which came first? Can anyone tell me anything about this manuscript? Tried to look it up online, but didn't get to much.

 

[Katzpur]

I have recently purchased an unpublished manuscript written by one S. Spolding. It states it is from the early 1800s. It starts off by decribing how the author was investigating indian mounds, then he discovered a set of brass plates and "written on them were histories of glorious men who lived in the days yore." But one set of plates in particular caught the mans eyes. It then descripes a story of a man named "Nephi" who travels with his people from Israel to America to escape Jerusalem before the flood. The manuscript later goes on to describe how the tribes settled America and how the people split into diffrent groups and wars braking out among them.

The story has huge similarities to the Book of Mormon. It is nearly identical to the Books of Alma and Ether, along with parts of Mosiah and Helaman in the Book of Mormon. By identical, I mean whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes.

I'm just wondering, which came first? Can anyone tell me anything about this manuscript? Tried to look it up online, but didn't get to much.

Have you actually read both the Book of Mormon and this manuscript yet? If you had, I suspect you would not be asking this question. I have not read the Spaulding manuscript, but everything I have ever read about it -- which is quite a bit -- indicates that any similarities to the Book of Mormon are very, very general in nature and nothing remotely like you've described. I am pretty much certain that if "it is nearly identical to the Books of Alma and Ether, along with parts of Mosiah and Helaman in the Book of Mormon... [with] whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes," I would have known about it long before now, as I am definitely not uninformed on the subject. I'm also surprised that you didn't find much on the subject when you looked online, because there is a ton of information out there.

How about a few quotes (including the "whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes" to substantiate your claim? (Good luck with that, by the way; you're going to need it.)

 

[Nietzsche]

I have recently purchased an unpublished manuscript written by one S. Spolding. It states it is from the early 1800s. It starts off by decribing how the author was investigating indian mounds, then he discovered a set of brass plates and "written on them were histories of glorious men who lived in the days yore." But one set of plates in particular caught the mans eyes. It then descripes a story of a man named "Nephi" who travels with his people from Israel to America to escape Jerusalem before the flood. The manuscript later goes on to describe how the tribes settled America and how the people split into diffrent groups and wars braking out among them.

The story has huge similarities to the Book of Mormon. It is nearly identical to the Books of Alma and Ether, along with parts of Mosiah and Helaman in the Book of Mormon. By identical, I mean whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes.

I'm just wondering, which came first? Can anyone tell me anything about this manuscript? Tried to look it up online, but didn't get to much.

You're aware that Spalding was writing fiction, right? One where the Romans discovered the Americas, right? I mean, you can make the same argument about Joe, one I'd agree with, but I sincerely doubt plagiarism of Spalding's work.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

You're aware that Spalding was writing fiction, right? One where the Romans discovered the Americas, right? I mean, you can make the same argument about Joe, one I'd agree with, but I sincerely doubt plagiarism of Spalding's work.

The manuscript I have is about Hebrew people coming to America with their leader Nephi. It is a work of faction. There is no reference to it being a "historical" work, but seems to be a good fiction book about a tribe escaping Israel before the flood. It has nothing to do with the Romans at all, it takes place before Rome.

 

[Nietzsche]

The manuscript I have is about Hebrew people coming to America with their leader Nephi. It is a work of faction. There is no reference to it being a "historical" work, but seems to be a good fiction book about a tribe escaping Israel before the flood. It has nothing to do with the Romans at all, it takes place before Rome.

I may be confusing two different works of his, then.

 

[gsa]

I may be confusing two different works of his, then.

I think there are two, one about a Roman expedition, and the other about a lost tribe of Israel.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

Have you actually read both the Book of Mormon and this manuscript yet? If you had, I suspect you would not be asking this question. I have not read the Spaulding manuscript, but everything I have ever read about it -- which is quite a bit -- indicates that any similarities to the Book of Mormon are very, very general in nature and nothing remotely like you've described. I am pretty much certain that if "it is nearly identical to the Books of Alma and Ether, along with parts of Mosiah and Helaman in the Book of Mormon... [with] whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes," I would have known about it long before now, as I am definitely not uninformed on the subject. I'm also surprised that you didn't find much on the subject when you looked online, because there is a ton of information out there.

How about a few quotes (including the "whole paragraphs taken from it, with very slight changes" to substantiate your claim? (Good luck with that, by the way; you're going to need it.)

I don't have the time right know, but when I do, I will quote it. I look up a few things online, but none that qoute from it or anything. The beganing part of the book starts off a little diffrent from the BOM when it reads from the plate, it does say:

"I, Nephi, having been born to the most godliest of families, therefor I was taught in the wisdom of my forefathers about the great goodness, and mysteries of the Lord of Hosts. Behold, I make a record of my proceedings in those glorious of days."

That's the only thing it has in common with 1 Nephi. It is all written in cursive, so it will take some time for longer quotes, I'll try to do some tomarrow if I have time.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

I think there are two, one about a Roman expedition, and the other about a lost tribe of Israel.

I looked up the one about the Romans, it is diffrent.

 

[Katzpur]

The manuscript I have is about Hebrew people coming to America with their leader Nephi. It is a work of faction. There is no reference to it being a "historical" work, but seems to be a good fiction book about a tribe escaping Israel before the flood. It has nothing to do with the Romans at all, it takes place before Rome.

Just how big does the book say this "tribe" is? And what "flood" are we talking about? The supposed world-wide flood from which Noah and his family were the only survivors? Or some other flood?

 

[Katzpur]

I think there are two, one about a Roman expedition, and the other about a lost tribe of Israel.

Yeah, well, since the Book of Mormon is not about a lost tribe of Israel, we have a non-match from the get-go.

 

[Sapiens]

From wiki:

The Spalding–Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon authorship is the theory that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized in part from an unpublished manuscript written by Solomon Spalding. This theory first appeared in print in the book Mormonism Unvailed [sic], published in 1834 by E. D. Howe. The theory claimed that the Spalding manuscript was at some point acquired by Sidney Rigdon, who used it in collusion with Joseph Smith to produce the Book of Mormon. Although Rigdon claimed that he was converted to the Latter Day Saint movement through reading the Book of Mormon, Howe argued that the story was a later invention to cover the book's true origins.

Contemporary Mormon apologetics state that the theory has been disproved and is discredited and argue that "few historians—whether friendly or hostile to the truth claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)—believe that the historical data support the Spalding manuscript hypothesis."

 

[Katzpur]

By the way, what is it we are debating here? Because this is not a debate forum.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

Just how big does the book say this "tribe" is? And what "flood" are we talking about? The supposed world-wide flood from which Noah and his family were the only survivors? Or some other flood?

It doesn't state an exact number, but it does state that there were many thousands. Yes, the world-wide flood of Noah. It is a work of fiction, so it does not nessarly have to match up with scripture. In the manuscript, it states that "Enoch, my [Nephi's] grandfather, the father of my father, who is called Lehi, came and visited me [Nephi] at Jerusalem and spaketh to me mysteries about times not yet, that I might remain pure in heart and soft in breath so that I might lead my family and my people into new lands, in the hopes that our eyes would not see coming days of despair" Nephi then goes to the Red Sea and eventually he and his people get help to build an ark, then sails to America.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't have the time right know, but when I do, I will quote it. I look up a few things online, but none that qoute from it or anything. The beganing part of the book starts off a little diffrent from the BOM when it reads from the plate, it does say:

"I, Nephi, having been born to the most godliest of families, therefor I was taught in the wisdom of my forefathers about the great goodness, and mysteries of the Lord of Hosts. Behold, I make a record of my proceedings in those glorious of days."

That's the only thing it has in common with 1 Nephi. It is all written in cursive, so it will take some time for longer quotes, I'll try to do some tomarrow if I have time.

While you're at it, could you tell me how this opening sentence ties to Alma and to Ether? That must have been a hell of a creative story line. Seriously, the Spaulding Manuscript was, years and years ago, frequently said to be Joseph Smith's source for the Book of Mormon. However, since 1946, when anti-Mormon historian Fawn Brodie wrote her biography of Joseph Smith ("No Man Knows My History), and acknowledged that there was no evidence whatsoever to support claims that the Book of Mormon was based on the Spaulding manuscript, not even Mormonism's critics have bought into that nonsense. And that is a fact.

You know what? So much for dancing around the issue and pretending to give you any kind of benefit of the doubt. Only one manuscript has ever been found and it is about a Roman ship that was blown off course while on a voyage to England in the 4th century and ended up in America. Sounds like a great story, but it has absolutely nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. I'm sorry to have to put it so bluntly, but the manuscript you're supposedly quoting from does not exist and never has. I'll stop with that.

Suggestion: You might want to move on to "View of the Hebrews."

 

[Katzpur]

It doesn't state an exact number, but it does state that there were many thousands. Yes, the world-wide flood of Noah. It is a work of fiction, so it does not nessarly have to match up with scripture. In the manuscript, it states that "Enoch, my [Nephi's] grandfather, the father of my father, who is called Lehi, came and visited me [Nephi] at Jerusalem and spaketh to me mysteries about times not yet, that I might remain pure in heart and soft in breath so that I might lead my family and my people into new lands, in the hopes that our eyes would not see coming days of despair" Nephi then goes to the Red Sea and eventually he and his people get help to build an ark, then sails to America.

You really must think me stupid.

 

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[gsa]

It doesn't state an exact number, but it does state that there were many thousands. Yes, the world-wide flood of Noah. It is a work of fiction, so it does not nessarly have to match up with scripture. In the manuscript, it states that "Enoch, my [Nephi's] grandfather, the father of my father, who is called Lehi, came and visited me [Nephi] at Jerusalem and spaketh to me mysteries about times not yet, that I might remain pure in heart and soft in breath so that I might lead my family and my people into new lands, in the hopes that our eyes would not see coming days of despair" Nephi then goes to the Red Sea and eventually he and his people get help to build an ark, then sails to America.

That's interesting. What happens when Nephi reaches America?

 

[Christ's Lamb]

Here's what the prologue to the book states:


"Ye all knowest, my dearest readers, of the mounds that are doted across the land of this country, and ye all knowest of the legends pertaining to said mounds. Ye surely have asked thyself many questions concerning their construction. These very questions I, the author, was asking myself when I was searching around one of these mounds.

I eventually found an unusually flat rock, which I dug around with my hands the best that could be done under those poor conditions. A short time had passed until I realized that the rock I had been trying to dig up was no rock a ‘tall, but a stone box that appeared to be carved with primitive tools. I then pried it open using a rod and Lo, a set of plates with unusual Hebraic characters written on them. The plates themselves were about six inches wide by eight inches in length, and were about half an inch thick. They appeared to be made out of brass and were fastened together by three small rings that ran through each individual plate. The volume as a whole was about ten inches thick."

After this, Chapter 1 starts.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

While you're at it, could you tell me how this opening sentence ties to Alma and to Ether? That must have been a hell of a creative story line. Seriously, the Spaulding Manuscript was, years and years ago, frequently said to be Joseph Smith's source for the Book of Mormon. However, since 1946, when anti-Mormon historian Fawn Brodie wrote her biography of Joseph Smith ("No Man Knows My History), and acknowledged that there was no evidence whatsoever to support claims that the Book of Mormon was based on the Spaulding manuscript, not even Mormonism's critics have bought into that nonsense. And that is a fact.

You know what? So much for dancing around the issue and pretending to give you any kind of benefit of the doubt. Only one manuscript has ever been found and it is about a Roman ship that was blown off course while on a voyage to England in the 4th century and ended up in America. Sounds like a great story, but it has absolutely nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. I'm sorry to have to put it so bluntly, but the manuscript you're supposedly quoting from does not exist and never has. I'll stop with that.

Suggestion: You might want to move on to "View of the Hebrews."

The opening versus doesn't have anything to do with Alma and Ether, but it is similar to the opening versus of 1 Nephi. I'm not asking you to believe me, I just posted this thread to see if anyone knew anything about this manuscript. I will happily post pictures of the manuscript, but first I would like to contact a lawyer because a good friend of mine said that he knows a guy down in Mass. that could run tests on the manuscript to see if it is actually old enough to be Spalding's.

 

[Christ's Lamb]

That's interesting. What happens when Nephi reaches America?

His tribe builds houses and starts farming, and it appears that are saved from the great flood. Eventually the tribe spreads over all the continent and there is a division, which leads to wars. At the very end, a king named Moroni places the brass tablets in the stone box, and buries it for a future generation to find. It is obviously a work of fiction, though, Spalding wrote it in a way that the person reading it might wonder if it was true or not.