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Ah...free will
- Thread starter Jane D.
- Start date
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Jane D. said:
Ok, before the tree, we weren't aware of what evil was. Although we could easily have committed evil before the tree, it would have been an act of ignorance with no culpability. Something sinful is attached with knowing it is wrong. The only way we could know something is wrong is by someone telling us. In this case it was God who told us "don't eat from that tree". You following me?
Having what you want doesn't seem hard to comprehend to me. Hell is a life apart from God. You want to live your life by your own rules, by your own will, and apart from God, then that's what you get for eternity. You wanna call the serprent (a.k.a the liar, the deciever, Satan) the good guy, then you get to do that for the rest of your afterlife. You get what you asked for, what you deserve. If you live your life by your own will, do you honestly think you deserve to be in the let into heaven?
Free will is having the choice to live your life with God or apart from him. You live your life apart from God, the that's what you get when you die. It's that simple.
Free will is having the choice to live your life with God or apart from him. You live your life apart from God, the that's what you get when you die. It's that simple.
Jane D.
Member
No, I'm not sure that I am following you. I don't get what is innately wrong about the act of eating from that tree. And I don't see how ignorance is beneficial to God or us at all. If we are ignorant of what is right and what is wrong, then I'm just trying to figure out what the point in us living was? We were just going along day-to-day doing whatever, our actions not even mattering because we knew not what we did.
According to this theory, we were capable of commiting sins, but we didn't know it when we did? So we could decide to kill ourselves or someone else, but it wouldn't matter, because we didn't know any better?
I'm trying to understand where this makes sense. How would life have been if the tree had never been eaten from. Would we still not know the difference between right and wrong? Would we be allowed to commit ignoract acts because we didn't know any better? Why would God want a world like this? What would be the point?
I think I'm rambling because this theory has left me completely in the dark...I'm am at a loss and I cannot understand what and why the world would not benefit from the so-called tree of knowledge.
AHH! please explain
According to this theory, we were capable of commiting sins, but we didn't know it when we did? So we could decide to kill ourselves or someone else, but it wouldn't matter, because we didn't know any better?
I'm trying to understand where this makes sense. How would life have been if the tree had never been eaten from. Would we still not know the difference between right and wrong? Would we be allowed to commit ignoract acts because we didn't know any better? Why would God want a world like this? What would be the point?
I think I'm rambling because this theory has left me completely in the dark...I'm am at a loss and I cannot understand what and why the world would not benefit from the so-called tree of knowledge.
AHH! please explain
Well I sure hope that's the truth, but that's just not how I take it when I read those versus, I just can't see that distinction, but it is a comforting thought, and I hope it's true and I'm glad that's how you see it...hopefully I will be able to see it that way, but for now, I guess it just takes reasoning as they say.Victor said:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Nothing is innately wrong about it. It BECAME wrong as soon as God told you not to do it.Jane D. said:
It's not. That was the whole point of the tree.Jane D. said:
Why would you think they didn't matter? Ignorance of something, doesn't mean it doesn't matter, it simply means you don't know.Jane D. said:
Before the tree, that is correct. Unless it was something written into the hearts of men (like deception for example).Jane D. said:
See my example above. Certain things were pretty obivious (hence: written in the hearts of men) the tree was not an obivious one.Jane D. said:
Excellent question. I don't know. I suppose it would be like little children doing something wrong, with no parent in site to them otherwise.Jane D. said:
He wouldn't. But the world is already like that right now.Jane D. said:
Let me know if you have any more questions.Jane D. said:I think I'm rambling because this theory has left me completely in the dark...I'm am at a loss and I cannot understand what and why the world would not benefit from the so-called tree of knowledge.
AHH! please explain
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Your persistance makes me doubt this.tlcmel said:
That is certainly not my interpretation. If it was up to me, I could interpret pink unicorns out of any verse you were to throw at me. My intention was to explain what traditional Christianity understood by it. There is plenty of early church documents.tlcmel said:
Jane D.
Member
I think that this is where I'm having a problem. I don't consider right and wrong to be decided by a law-maker. I think that they are universal truths, and just because God says its bad to eat an apple, doesn't make it true. I think true right, true goodness....they are above the power of God. He cannot change what is good and right. He doesn't decide. And I see nothing wrong with eating an apple simply because God said not to. If the heavens opened up, and God spoke to me and told me that it was wrong to eat bananas, I would not believe it.
I just cannot believe that God would have wanted us to avoid the tree of knowledge. I would think it would be his desire that we have all of this knowledge and then we could really put our free will to use.
This whole topic reminds me of this ellaborate theory that has been slowly developing in my mind. ...I'll make another thread about it.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Jane D. said:
Is eating a cookie a universal wrong?
It's obvious, it's not.
Is eating a cookie if your parent told you not to a universal wrong?
I would think disobedience is more a universal truth then the previous one.
So what is it that you don't understand?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Jane D. said:
I don't know. I'm practically illiterate when it comes to the Bible.
I'm just saying it's quite possible from the point of the creation story. Maybe God gave humans free will and warned them of the tree but was disappointed when Adam and Eve just sat around doing what....nothing? The use of the serpent was God's first test of humanity's free will and that, despite all the eviction and notions of original sin, humanity actually passed the test by defying God's original command when they ate the fruit.
They made a decision of their own free will despite any perceived consequences. God says, "Perfection. They are curious by nature and wish to mold their own lives. To create for themselves with knowledge they have found."
Please note: I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination and basically anything I post in these thread can best be considered as rambling. Do not wish to derail the debate by those who hold more knowledge than myself.
I sort of liked the premise that sparkyluv introduced. However, I am LDS and some Mormons claim that there is no hell or everlasting fire where the wicked are cast. That teaching is only true in part. LDS know that God had a beginning as God, even though He has alway existed. In the Mormon book "pearl of Great Price" is written this dialog between God and Moses: God said, "The worlds that I have created are without number to man, but they are numbered unto me, even as the hairs of you head are numbered unto me." That statement made by God creates a very interesting questions. But to understand the question first let me ask one other question. If we were to ask God to measure the endlessness of space and give us an accurate number of miles or kilometers across it, could God answer our request. No He could not. Space has no end and even God cannot measure the endless. In our finite way of thinking, if there were an end to space, then there would also have to be an end to that end. So in our own finite way of thinking we eliminate the possibility of there being an end.
So the question then becomes; If God cannot measure space but can number the worlds, wouldn't that mean that there was a first earth? I don't know what your answer may be, but to me it means that there was indeed a first earth. Now along that line of thought let me introduce a teaching from our second prophet, Brigham Young. Brigham Young, in one of his discourses asked a question saying; "And who is God?" Then he answers his own query by saying, "He is the first of the human family." In the same talk where Brigham Young made that statement he also said, "Adam is our father and our God, and the only God with which we have to do." To anyone who is not familiar with Mormon doctrine that may seem like a really stupid statement, but not to some Mormons.
Joseph Smith said I liken a spirit like unto the ring on my finger, because it has no beginning and no ending. If I were to cut my ring in two, then it would have a beginning but then it would also have an ending. All the fools and learned and wise men, who teach from the beginning of creation who say a spirit has a beginning, must also teach that it has an ending. And if that doctrine is true then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God could not create his own spirit self. Intelligence is spirit and exists upon a self-existent principle and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. In the beginning all men were
co-equal with God."(end of quote) That may sound confusing but there is something written in mormon doctrine about an entity known to us as "Intelligence." Now if mere man were or could ever be co-equal with the God that created them, it would have to have been the time when there were no Gods, no people, no animals, no plants, no insects, and so on. We were all of one of thousands of specie of the spirit entity known to us, (Mormons) as Intelligence.
It is written that intelligence can't be created or made but live on a self-existent principle and there is no space in which there is no intelligence.
The only power that intelligence possessed that is now common to man was the power of thought. Intelligence could not move, touch, taste, smell, hear, see, and so on. There was no beginning to intelligence and there will never be and end to intelligence.
During one of the many millennia that these intelligence existed, one of them, who proved himself to be the most intelligent of them all, even though before, they had all been equal in Intelligence; at least the intelligence who were capable of becoming human kind; used his own mental power and created an instrument, which I know nothing about what that instrument was like, with the exception that that instrument allowed that Intelligence to vocalize the first word that broke the awesome silence of the world of Intelligence. The first word that was ever uttered, was GOD.
St. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with GOD, the WORD was God.
To any learned Mormon that one simple verse is to be interpreted exactly like that.
With the power of speech added to a being who already knew everything there was to know, so far as logical information was concerned, HE now had the power to speak, and command. By commanding molecules, atoms, and everything else that was necessary to create a biological computer; MAN, and when God or that intelligence place his intelligence, which is an electrical computer chip capable of, let's say of storing, 60 TRILLION gigabits of information, the computer now had to power that is possessed by all human kind. He then cloned a woman from his own DNA so that the both of them could procreate offspring much like themselves.
It was taught in the Mormon Temples that the Adam of the first earth was the only Adam that needed to be created from the dust, or elements of the earth. All other people were only created figuratively as expressed by Ezekiel when he said, "These are my people. They have I created. I have created them for mine own purpose. I have taken the stony heart out of their flesh and have given them an heart of flesh." The people answer by saying, "Yes, Father, thou art the potter and we are the clay, and we are all the work of thine hand."
For the endless fire, there is certainly one that can be considered endless, where the wicked are cast. But perhaps not as we may think. This earth will change from Telestial to Terrestrial and that will take the power of our sun to accomplish that. Our sun will makes its change from Nova to Red Giant, and will produce a temperature on earth, when compared with other Red Giants, or over 1200 degrees of surface temperature. But it informs us in over 16 books of scripture that God will darken the sun for the elect's sake. God will utilize earth's own science to darken the sun.
IF you wish to read the Book of Isaiah and begin with Chapter 30 verse 26 you will, or should be able to note that the verse in Isaiah is predicting a Red Giant. A Red Giant Sun is not a strange science. It happens on every sun God creates. There is one worse cataclysm after the Red Giant that is called a Super Nova, that will cause a temperature on the earth of 10 million degrees in a matter of minutes. These changes are both foretold in our King James Bible and all the Mormon scriptures. When the super Nova happens is when we will all have to be taken off the earth in order to survive. We can all survive a Red Giant Sun by doing what Isaiah tell us to do: "Isaiah 26: 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers and shut thy doors about thee.
21. Hide thyself for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. When the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity."
So, yes, there is an everlasting fire if you were to believe that the work of God is everlasting. The same thing, at the same time will occur on every earth, so I suppose you could call that an everlasting fire since the Lord utilizes the same plan on every earth. However, here is something to consider: Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave to some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, Pastors and Teachers.
12. For the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
13. Till we ALL come to the unity of the faith, and a knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN. UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST.
Here is one more verse to consider: 1 Corinthians 15: 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
For every sin there is a debt to pay, and the debt is determined on the seriousness of the sin. Some of us, probably me too, will have to suffer the pain of death by fire. But in the end it seems according to Ephesians that we will all become as perfect as Jesus Christ. Now I may not be reading those scriptures correctly and I am not saying to just believe them at my word, but at least it is something worth looking into.
There is so much more written on the subject; for example, "How do we survive a Red Giant sun that will burn for around 4000 years. A Red Giant occurred in the Galaxy Andromeda in 1009 and is still burning as a Red Giant. But remember, it takes a Red Giant to change this earth into a place like the Garden of Eden again. (isaiah 51: 1-4)
For those who would like to communicate further on this subject my e-mail address is [email protected]. I would be more than happy to discuss or hear your point of view. I guess you might say that I am like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) when he said; "I never met a man in my life that wasn't better than me-------- at something."
God Love all
gramps
So the question then becomes; If God cannot measure space but can number the worlds, wouldn't that mean that there was a first earth? I don't know what your answer may be, but to me it means that there was indeed a first earth. Now along that line of thought let me introduce a teaching from our second prophet, Brigham Young. Brigham Young, in one of his discourses asked a question saying; "And who is God?" Then he answers his own query by saying, "He is the first of the human family." In the same talk where Brigham Young made that statement he also said, "Adam is our father and our God, and the only God with which we have to do." To anyone who is not familiar with Mormon doctrine that may seem like a really stupid statement, but not to some Mormons.
Joseph Smith said I liken a spirit like unto the ring on my finger, because it has no beginning and no ending. If I were to cut my ring in two, then it would have a beginning but then it would also have an ending. All the fools and learned and wise men, who teach from the beginning of creation who say a spirit has a beginning, must also teach that it has an ending. And if that doctrine is true then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God could not create his own spirit self. Intelligence is spirit and exists upon a self-existent principle and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. In the beginning all men were
co-equal with God."(end of quote) That may sound confusing but there is something written in mormon doctrine about an entity known to us as "Intelligence." Now if mere man were or could ever be co-equal with the God that created them, it would have to have been the time when there were no Gods, no people, no animals, no plants, no insects, and so on. We were all of one of thousands of specie of the spirit entity known to us, (Mormons) as Intelligence.
It is written that intelligence can't be created or made but live on a self-existent principle and there is no space in which there is no intelligence.
The only power that intelligence possessed that is now common to man was the power of thought. Intelligence could not move, touch, taste, smell, hear, see, and so on. There was no beginning to intelligence and there will never be and end to intelligence.
During one of the many millennia that these intelligence existed, one of them, who proved himself to be the most intelligent of them all, even though before, they had all been equal in Intelligence; at least the intelligence who were capable of becoming human kind; used his own mental power and created an instrument, which I know nothing about what that instrument was like, with the exception that that instrument allowed that Intelligence to vocalize the first word that broke the awesome silence of the world of Intelligence. The first word that was ever uttered, was GOD.
St. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with GOD, the WORD was God.
To any learned Mormon that one simple verse is to be interpreted exactly like that.
With the power of speech added to a being who already knew everything there was to know, so far as logical information was concerned, HE now had the power to speak, and command. By commanding molecules, atoms, and everything else that was necessary to create a biological computer; MAN, and when God or that intelligence place his intelligence, which is an electrical computer chip capable of, let's say of storing, 60 TRILLION gigabits of information, the computer now had to power that is possessed by all human kind. He then cloned a woman from his own DNA so that the both of them could procreate offspring much like themselves.
It was taught in the Mormon Temples that the Adam of the first earth was the only Adam that needed to be created from the dust, or elements of the earth. All other people were only created figuratively as expressed by Ezekiel when he said, "These are my people. They have I created. I have created them for mine own purpose. I have taken the stony heart out of their flesh and have given them an heart of flesh." The people answer by saying, "Yes, Father, thou art the potter and we are the clay, and we are all the work of thine hand."
For the endless fire, there is certainly one that can be considered endless, where the wicked are cast. But perhaps not as we may think. This earth will change from Telestial to Terrestrial and that will take the power of our sun to accomplish that. Our sun will makes its change from Nova to Red Giant, and will produce a temperature on earth, when compared with other Red Giants, or over 1200 degrees of surface temperature. But it informs us in over 16 books of scripture that God will darken the sun for the elect's sake. God will utilize earth's own science to darken the sun.
IF you wish to read the Book of Isaiah and begin with Chapter 30 verse 26 you will, or should be able to note that the verse in Isaiah is predicting a Red Giant. A Red Giant Sun is not a strange science. It happens on every sun God creates. There is one worse cataclysm after the Red Giant that is called a Super Nova, that will cause a temperature on the earth of 10 million degrees in a matter of minutes. These changes are both foretold in our King James Bible and all the Mormon scriptures. When the super Nova happens is when we will all have to be taken off the earth in order to survive. We can all survive a Red Giant Sun by doing what Isaiah tell us to do: "Isaiah 26: 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers and shut thy doors about thee.
21. Hide thyself for a little moment until the indignation be overpast. When the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity."
So, yes, there is an everlasting fire if you were to believe that the work of God is everlasting. The same thing, at the same time will occur on every earth, so I suppose you could call that an everlasting fire since the Lord utilizes the same plan on every earth. However, here is something to consider: Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave to some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, Pastors and Teachers.
12. For the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
13. Till we ALL come to the unity of the faith, and a knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN. UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST.
Here is one more verse to consider: 1 Corinthians 15: 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
For every sin there is a debt to pay, and the debt is determined on the seriousness of the sin. Some of us, probably me too, will have to suffer the pain of death by fire. But in the end it seems according to Ephesians that we will all become as perfect as Jesus Christ. Now I may not be reading those scriptures correctly and I am not saying to just believe them at my word, but at least it is something worth looking into.
There is so much more written on the subject; for example, "How do we survive a Red Giant sun that will burn for around 4000 years. A Red Giant occurred in the Galaxy Andromeda in 1009 and is still burning as a Red Giant. But remember, it takes a Red Giant to change this earth into a place like the Garden of Eden again. (isaiah 51: 1-4)
For those who would like to communicate further on this subject my e-mail address is [email protected]. I would be more than happy to discuss or hear your point of view. I guess you might say that I am like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) when he said; "I never met a man in my life that wasn't better than me-------- at something."
God Love all
gramps
ikitikitembo
Member
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32771
jump on in people. i need to clear up some things in that debate.
what is conciousness anyways? who knows. :seesaw:
jump on in people. i need to clear up some things in that debate.
what is conciousness anyways? who knows. :seesaw: