Ah...free will

[Jane D.]

So, did God really give us free will??

He may have given us the ability to choose freely, but then he ripped that out of our hands by basically saying "Here you go, I'm giving you this wonderful gift of free will, now don't use it to make any choices except the ones that I want you to make, or else you'll be eternally punished."

What kind of free will is that? Not even enough to choose between right and wrong. It sismply enough to choose follow the rules or don't. To me, the essence of free will and the whole reason our human minds work the way that they do, is not to decide whether or not to follow the rules given to us. Rather, the point is to question what is wrong and what is right.

Food for thought...
its actually the serpent who wanted us to be able to know right and wrong, and then make our choice. Without knowledge, we're just as good as a trained dog who decides either to do what his master says or not do it.

 

[Quiddity]

Tell me, is there any situation that you can think of that you CAN'T say NO TO?

 

[sparkyluv]

"Because of the serpent" we are forever seperated from God. Yeah, because of the serpent we know good, but we also know evil. That's an interesting point though. I'm not gonna lie, that thought has crossed my mind.

Think of it like college. A few of my classes don't have an attendence policy. So if you don't want to go to class you don't have to. You have a choice: Go to class or not go to class. You go to class, you pass and get credit. You don't go to class, you fail and your GPA falls and you don't get credit. No one forces you to go to class, but it's by choice. If you choose not to go to class and you fail, then it's not the teacher's fault, but it's your own fault because of the choices you made. If you choose to go to class then you're rewarded for it. If you choose not to go class...then damn.

Point: God gives us a choice to come to him or not to come to him (or be saved or don't be saved). Those who are saved get eternal life those who don't...then damn.

I understand where you're coming from, though.

 

[Jane D.]

In that particular story, the serpent sure seems like the good guy to me.....and I think I will start another thread on that since I can go so much deeper into that.

To add to your college example -- You do have a choice whether or not to go to class. If you do go, you gain knowledge, which opens the door to thousands of more choices. If you never expand your knowledge and never pursue the study of what is right and wrong, then your choices, while there, are extremely limited. Is this really what God intended when he gave us free will? Honestly, if we were given the choice to either accept him or not, but we were completely ignorant to good and evil, what good is that decision? It's blind, and shallow. Why would God have wanted that? A well-informed decision is infintely more powerful and meaningful than an ignorant choice.

Victor....no, I can say no to anything. So can a dog. Free will is nothing without knowledge to back it up.

 

[michel]

So, did God really give us free will??

He may have given us the ability to choose freely, but then he ripped that out of our hands by basically saying "Here you go, I'm giving you this wonderful gift of free will, now don't use it to make any choices except the ones that I want you to make, or else you'll be eternally punished."

What kind of free will is that? Not even enough to choose between right and wrong. It sismply enough to choose follow the rules or don't. To me, the essence of free will and the whole reason our human minds work the way that they do, is not to decide whether or not to follow the rules given to us. Rather, the point is to question what is wrong and what is right.

Food for thought...
its actually the serpent who wanted us to be able to know right and wrong, and then make our choice. Without knowledge, we're just as good as a trained dog who decides either to do what his master says or not do it.

What kind of free will is that? Not even enough to choose between right and wrong. It sismply enough to choose follow the rules or don't. To me, the essence of free will and the whole reason our human minds work the way that they do, is not to decide whether or not to follow the rules given to us. Rather, the point is to question what is wrong and what is right.

I disagree; it isn't so much 'simply choose to follow the rules or don't' (at least in my mind it isn't.

We know what is right and what is wrong in our hearts; (except for the commandments relating
to God himself). As far as I see it, God expects two things from us; a pure and honest heart that always 'lives' by 'Love', and belief in him (Faith).

Questioning what is right and wrong ought to be an innate ability (and is subjective depending on which culture ypo were brought up in. Just follow your heart.............

 

[Quiddity]

Victor....no, I can say no to anything. So can a dog. Free will is nothing without knowledge to back it up.

No, a dog cannot say NO to everything. There lies the difference.

Try to kill a dog and you will soon find out that it has no choice but to say "I WILL NOT DIE". A human on the other hand can commit suicide on demand.

 

[Hacker]

or else you'll be eternally punished."

Yeah, that's ridiculous if you ask me! Could't we pay for our sins when we die some other way if we had to than having to be burining in FIRE for eternity! :fork: :tribal2:
I just can't comprehend that.

 

[Quiddity]

Yeah, that's ridiculous if you ask me! Could't we pay for our sins when we die some other way if we had to than having to be burining in FIRE for eternity! :fork: :tribal2:
I just can't comprehend that.

Hell isn't paying for ANYTHING. You are just getting what you get, freedom from God. Is this hard to comprehend?

 

[Jane D.]

A human on the other hand can commit suicide on demand

Do you think we would be able to make this decision withought the knowledge of evil?

I disagree; it isn't so much 'simply choose to follow the rules or don't' (at least in my mind it isn't.

The reason I worded it this way, is because our fate was not rested on a decision that had anything to do with right or wrong. It had only to do with following the rules. "Don't eat the fruit." The action itself holds no moral value other than follow/break the rules.

Can we know right and wrong in our hearts even, if we don't have knowledge of evil? Knowing wrongness, even on a subconscious level, is knowing evil. is it not?

 

[Quiddity]

]Do you think we would be able to make this decision withought the knowledge of evil?

Absolutely....

 

[Quiddity]

BURNING FOR ETERNITY HIS HARD TO COMPREHEND!!! FOR ANYBODY!

The burning is just symbological language for "it sucks in this place". More then anything, it's because people come to have no doubt that God exist. The suffering is due to wanting something they can't have.

 

[Hacker]

Hell isn't paying for ANYTHING. You are just getting what you get, freedom from God. Is this hard to comprehend?

The burning is just symbological language for "it sucks in this place".

Doesn't sound like it's "symbolical" to me according to scriptures.

1. Jesus described hell as a place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). 2. The rich man who found himself in torment was both eternally consigned there without any hope (Luke 16:26), and was suffering (16:23 “lifted up his eyes, being in torment”). 3. Jesus said that the fire described in hell is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), yet if hell is temporary or annihilation, then the fire is eventually quenched. Jesus further noted, “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44,46,48). Clearly, Jesus is warning us against anyone who would tell us that the suffering in hell is temporary, eventually ends, or is non-existent. 4. The wicked end up consigned with the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) and this condition is called “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46). In addition, the suffering of the devil and all his followers is pictured as conscious suffering that never ends, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). 5. The Holy Spirit speaking through Peter described wicked people as presently being under punishment (2 Peter 2:9

That's what's hard to comprehend!!

 

[Quiddity]

That's what's hard to comprehend!!

Well now that you have received clarification, what's so hard now?

 

[Hacker]

Well now that you have received clarification, what's so hard now?

1. Jesus described hell as a place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). 2. The rich man who found himself in torment was both eternally consigned there without any hope (Luke 16:26), and was suffering (16:23 “lifted up his eyes, being in torment”). 3. Jesus said that the fire described in hell is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), yet if hell is temporary or annihilation, then the fire is eventually quenched. Jesus further noted, “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44,46,48). Clearly, Jesus is warning us against anyone who would tell us that the suffering in hell is temporary, eventually ends, or is non-existent. 4. The wicked end up consigned with the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) and this condition is called “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46). In addition, the suffering of the devil and all his followers is pictured as conscious suffering that never ends, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). 5. The Holy Spirit speaking through Peter described wicked people as presently being under punishment (2 Peter 2:9

It doesn't sound "symbolical" to me or logical.

 

[Quiddity]

It doesn't

It doesn't what?

 

[Jane D.]

Quote:Originally Posted by Jane D.]Do you think we would be able to make this decision withought the knowledge of evil?
Absolutely.... ___________________________

Okay...so, we had knowledge enough to commit evil deeds before we ate from the tree of knowledge. So what exactly did the tree of knowledge do to us?

 

[Quiddity]

Okay...so, we had knowledge enough to commit evil deeds before we ate from the tree of knowledge. So what exactly did the tree of knowledge do to us?

We didn't have "knowledge". We simply had the capacity to do it. The tree simply expadiated the process.

 

[Hacker]

The burning is just symbological language for "it sucks in this place".

All of those verses that I just posted doesn not sound "symbolical" to me, lol!

 

[Jane D.]

We didn't have "knowledge". We simply had the capacity to do it. The tree simply expadiated the process.

I guess I just don't get it...can i get a detailed explination of what exactly happened when the fruit was eaten?

 

[Hacker]

1. Jesus described hell as a place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). 2. The rich man who found himself in torment was both eternally consigned there without any hope (Luke 16:26), and was suffering (16:23 “lifted up his eyes, being in torment”). 3. Jesus said that the fire described in hell is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), yet if hell is temporary or annihilation, then the fire is eventually quenched. Jesus further noted, “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44,46,48). Clearly, Jesus is warning us against anyone who would tell us that the suffering in hell is temporary, eventually ends, or is non-existent. 4. The wicked end up consigned with the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) and this condition is called “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46). In addition, the suffering of the devil and all his followers is pictured as conscious suffering that never ends, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). 5. The Holy Spirit speaking through Peter described wicked people as presently being under punishment (2 Peter 2:9

There I did it again in case you missed it, you still never answered my question, how does the above quotes indicate hell as being "symbolic?" I'm not trying to be mean, I just want to know how you percieve the above versus to be symbolic? I know we're kind of off topic but he still never answered me.