Yes; that substance, though, is not truth. It is uncertainty.There is a substantial and meaningful difference between saying believes because it is true, and believes because one believes it is true.
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Yes; that substance, though, is not truth. It is uncertainty.There is a substantial and meaningful difference between saying believes because it is true, and believes because one believes it is true.
Yes; that substance, though, is not truth. It is uncertainty.
Yay.I believe that you believe that.
But what if we only believe that we think we believe? That is the regression. You are promoting something that is not "only truth or falsity." You're promoting something that is more complicated.There is only truth or falsity. And our beliefs are either true or false. But we frequently think that what we believe is true, but then it turns out that it isn't. It happens to us all.
Now that you know of it, you've extrapolated that bit of knowledge back into the past.If a thing is false then it is false, there is no its now true that it was false. It was always false; the belief was erroneous.
Is that true? Is that truth that will never be realized as falsehood? Are you certain?What I see exists now is a significant movement towards fudge. Truth and falsehood arent temporal.
But what if we only believe that we think we believe? That is the regression. You are promoting something that is not "only truth or falsity." You're promoting something that is more complicated.
Now that you know of it, you've extrapolated that bit of knowledge back into the past.
Is that true? Is that truth that will never be realized as falsehood? Are you certain?
I have no argument with the former statement, whatsoever. And I never claimed the latter.There is one statement that answers all of the above, and it is this: truth or falsity exists independent of belief. Our belief that p imposes no necessity upon it. Thus 'what we believe is true' is not a necessary truth.
OK. I am now officially annoyed with the jelly-headed retorts to atheists like this one or all the stuff on this thread.
If you feel the urge to ask a stupid question like "Do you have proof that god doesn't exist?" then I am begging you to stop, replace the word "god" with any nonsensical word you can imagine, and then answer the question yourself.
If we are supposed to take the fact that there is no evidence as positive evidence then there are a lot of things we should be believing in but don't.
Please, please please put this irrational question out of its misery.
Now then, since we are only concerned with actual evidence, will someone, anyone please give any actual proof that your particular god is in fact the real god? If you can prove that then you can prove the existence of god along the way.
:::standing with arms akimbo awaiting any intelligent presentation of evidence:::
It is inaccurate, though, to say "we believed things that were false" in the manner you used that phrase earlier (but I suspect you've changed contexts now). But no matter. I do (mostly) agree, have all along, just word it more accurately.So let’s recap, then. You said if we believe things it’s because they are true. Is that correct? But as we believe, and have believed, things that that aren’t true, that statement must therefore be false! It comes back to three possibilities. We believe things either because they are true, ie justified: ‘The euro is the currency of Italy’; or we believe things because we think they are true, but which happen to be false: The ‘sun revolves around the earth’; or we believe things are true which are subjective/unjustifiable: ‘Obama will prove to be the best US president in modern times.’ So a belief may be true/false whether or not we believe it to be true/false. Agreed?
Does being raised in a Christian home by a pastor, going to Christian schools, reading the Scriptures in its original Greek, studying the Church Fathers, and going to church at least twice a week for 40 years count? Hmm? Just curious because you seem to think I am an uninformed dolt.Cobblestones, If you really want to know the truth about God, all you need to do is look into His Holy Scriptures, The Bible.
Explain what you mean? Nothing has changed. It is true that weve believed things that were false.
Things are not true to us until and unless we know they are true. So while we know the truth of "The euro is the currency of Italy," it is the truth. And while we know it as true, we believe it.
Cottage: Yes!
Willamena:
To say "we believe things because we think they are true" is to find out later another truth that apparently conflicts with the earlier truth. (This apparent conflict is also true, but that's another story.)
Cottage:
That careful choice of words cracks me up! It isnt another truth that conflicts with the earlier truth: it is the truth! And its not an 'apparent conflict' but a false belief. This is shades of Hirohitos speech to his people in 1945: The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japans advantage.
Oh do be serious! The world was once believed to be flat, but the world isnt flat. So all youre saying here is that its true it was once believed to be flat!
Got nothing at all to do with use. Youve already agreed that truth or falsity exists independent of our beliefs.
I dunno... it looks pretty flat to me, looking out my window here.Not sure what youre saying there. What Im saying, very simply, is that a belief may be true/or false regardless of what we believe. Examples: Obama is the President is true, whilst the earth is flat is not true.
Were seeing convoluted statements, appeals to relativism, the splitting of hairs and carefully contrived massive understatement, hence my reference to Hirohito.
So what are you trying to say now, that the world was once flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, or that witches really did deserve to be hanged and burned?
I like the way you repeatedly say allegedly, seemingly unaware that there are people even today who believe the world is flat.
And, excuse me, but there is no onus or obligation upon us to understand the way in which it was true, no more than we should understand Hilters reasoning for the Final Solution.
This is the manner in which Aristotle proceeded with his cosmological beliefs.
Well JTartar? Any response? Or do you only pontificate to people who actually have never experienced your religion and therefore cannot challenge your faith or reason?Does being raised in a Christian home by a pastor, going to Christian schools, reading the Scriptures in its original Greek, studying the Church Fathers, and going to church at least twice a week for 40 years count? Hmm? Just curious because you seem to think I am an uninformed dolt.Originally Posted by jtartar
Cobblestones, If you really want to know the truth about God, all you need to do is look into His Holy Scriptures, The Bible.
I think at times we all fall into jelly-headedness. The important thing is what flavour!I am not a jelly-head.