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Abrahamic Religions: The Star, the Cross, and the Crescent

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Abrahamic Religions and Civilizations!


I remember when I was younger, all what i wanted to do in this life was to watch TV and play video games. Every time I try to watch my favorite series or any good movie, one of my elder brothers would come and command me to change the channel to something more useful, apparently, there was nothing useful on this big box called TV to him except NEWS. Every time we change to a new channel, we were seeing the latest hottest news from all around the world, with the usual daily scenes in Palestine, of course.

Everyday I was watching Palestinians women and children being killed and injured, crying, screaming, and falling on the ground. I was wondering with my little knowledge i had about the world around me back then; why on earth these horrible things are happening to them, and why, the Jews, hate us that much. Why don't they just grip a piece of land of their choice and leave some other for the Palestinians?

Why the world can't do anything about this? And when i was going out, I was hearing the people at the mosques crying out loud on the prayer, oh God, please help the Palestinians. I started to wonder more, are people from other religions feel the way we Muslims do? Do they feel the pain when they watch people dying on the street everyday? but wait a second, that was only on TV, I never have seen anything like this my whole life, so, is it true that if we didn't experience something, ourselves, we won't be able to feel it?

Years after that, I traveled from Saudi Arabia where i was born and lived most of my life, to Malaysia, one of the most successful and developed Muslim countries, if it wasn't the best ever. There, i met, studied and have worked with Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, and even atheists. I then realized, they were just like us, feel the way we do, and think the way we do, and I even bet that some of them or some of the Jews i was thinking about when I was watching TV, were just like me, they were staying at home, watching TV, and wondering, why on earth Muslims are doing this to us now?

I kept questioning everything, reading, studying, discussing, and even debating, to find answers for some of my questions, which the most important one was, why can't we just live as we first were doing, long time a go?

Why can't Jews, Christians and Muslims live peacefully with each other? Then I was trying to guess, thinking, oh come on, you think you are in heaven, nothing is perfect, and the followers of religions will ALWAYS fight!

Then, i thought to go deep into history to study why people could live together in the past but we failed to do so now. I then came across so many books and i started to get answers for some of my questions little by little. I wanted to share some of my thoughts about this since a while but i didn't have the time to sit and write all that. Once i got the time, i jumped over to my pc and started either typing my own words or quote from some books here and there. That's why, I’ll start today with this topic at hand, about Abraham Religions, and i mean here Jews, Christians and Muslims, and how they were treating each other, and other civilizations as well. Nevertheless, I saw a lot of negative issues which i got bored talking about and watching on tv, and I wanted to discuss something more useful, and to avoid talking about the blood which have been shed as much as i can, to restore the glory of the past, from a point of view, which will be different than the one adopted by media today.

Dr. Muhammad Arif Zakaullah is a lecturer in my university, International Islamic University Malaysia. He teaches in the Department of Economics, and I have invited him in one of the programs I have organized in my university entitled “The Enemy Within” as a speaker. In recent years his research and publications have focused on the American political economy. In his book, The Cross and the Crescent, he wrote in chapter 12 (The View of the ‘Other’) the following:

-----------------------------------------------

One of the most easily distorted aspects in the discussion of a different faith is the view of the ‘other’. More often than not, it is our pride and self-interest that makes us see others in a negative light. Once this negative perspective becomes our way of thinking, we forget to differentiate between the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ in our treatment of others. In ancient Egypt, the Pharaoh saw the Israelites as the ‘other’ and hence mistreated them. Although the Egyptian civilization had great monuments, sophisticated art and writings and architecture to its credit, its sub-human treatment of the Israelites hangs over it like a dark shadow. The same is true of the ancient civilizations of Greece and Roman Empire which, despite their great achievements, remain at a lower standing due to the mistreatment of others.

As the Roman Empire was on the rise it experienced the coming of Jesus Christ. Once Jesus appeared on the scene he was treated as the ‘other’. His followers, being the ‘other’ as well, after him, were also discriminated against and tortured by the Romans.

In the 4th century, the Roman Emperors embraced Christianity and designated it as the state religion. As Christianity became powerful, both the Jews and the believers of the common Roman religion became the ‘other’. They were punished for their beliefs, tortured and persecuted. Narrating the oppression of Jews by zealot Christians, Abba Eban in his book Heritage: Civilization and the Jews, writes that in 1012 the son of the leading Jewish scholar, Gershom ben Judah (960-1028), “…was forcibly converted to Christianity”. Gershom was no ordinary person; he was revered highly for his scholarship, piety and was popularly called “Rabbenu (Our Rabbi)…” by the larger Jewish community. Abba Eban quotes the tributes paid to Rabbi Gershom by leading Jewish religious scholars in the following words:

“Rabbenu Gershom, may the memory of the righteous and
Holy be for a blessing, who enlightened the eyes of the
exile, and upon whom we all depend and of whom all
Ashkenazi Jewry are the disciples of his disciples…”

Islam, which was rising in the East, had a different view of the Jews as it accorded a special status to ‘the People of the Book’ (people who believe in the same God and follow their scriptures which are meant to give them divine guidance to the same eternal truth) and hence deserve to be treated with respect, dignity and religious freedom. The followers of Jesus and Moses were given full religious freedom in the Islamic civilization and their faith and religions were respected. Contrast the above suppression of the Jews and their forcible conversion to Christianity with Abba Eban’s comments on the Jewish life and experience in the Islamic world as he says:

“Above everything else, life under Arab rule offered wide scope for creative spiritual energies. How else can we explain the heights of creative energy, of literacy grace and aesthetic perfection exemplified in the eleventh and twelfth centuries by Solomon ibn Gabriol, Moses ibn Ezra, and Judah Halevi, all in Spain; and in Egypt by Moses ben Maimonides or Ramban-who also was born in Spain. In some places in the Arab empire, the Jews reached spiritual heights they had not scaled under Christian rule in diaspora.”

In the great centers of Islamic civilization it was not just religious freedom and social acceptance but also the opportunities to climb the social ladder that were open to Jews, and they were able to reach high positions, serve society and contribute to solving the problems of their own community and civilization. One such example, among many, is the story of Hasdai ibn Shaprut. Caliph Abd–er–Rahman III of Spain (891-961) appointed Hasdai as Physician in his court. Commenting on the power and position enjoyed by Hasdai in Muslim Spain, Abba Eban writes:

“From the standpoint of Jewish history, however, his most far--reaching act was to elevate Hasdai ibn Shaprut, his court physician, to the office of director of the customs department and to role of trusted adviser and emissary. It was Hasdai who conducted the delicate negotiations that led to the conclusion of peace treaties with Leon and Navarre in the late 950s.

Just as Abd-er-Rahman, in placing himself on par with the caliphs of Damascus and Egypt, established Muslim Spain’s political autonomy, so Hasdai ibn Shaprut, as leader of the Jewish community of Muslim Spain, deliberately sought to end his people’s subservience to Babylon. He named rabbi of Cordoba the learned Moses bin Hanokh (B.C. 965), who headed a yeshiva (rabbinical academy) and wrote responsa, so that Spanish Jews would not have to send to Sura and Pumbeditha for answers to halakhic questions. Hasdai befriended poets and supported scholars. A practicing physician, he also patronized the sciences and other learned professions.

-----------------------------------------------
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This was how Muslims see "the people of the book" in general, and this view about them never changed "in belief" although politics have another say as you all know.​

So, as a belief, how Jews and Christians think of Muslims and what they believe in, and how they believe we should be treated and dealt with?​

I just hope that we will try to see the big picture, but not the actions of irresponsible individuals from either party of us, because that will turn this thread into a fighting ground.​

So, do you think we can talk about the positive things we share even for one time?

We shall see that, and i hope we will be able to do so. I'm not just looking for fake or sweet talk, but i'm interested more in real dialogue with real solutions, or even suggestions. I'm aware that we might differ in opinions or beliefs but i hope that, at least, we will finish from here with a clean heart, and with a real intention to have a peaceful life together no matter how different we are.


I thank you all, from the heart, for being patient with me, and for reading all this. :)
 

kai

ragamuffin
Abu Khalid i fear i must find a couple of points to make that you will not like .

andalus was occupied by "others" if you were not Muslim until the Reconquista

Martyrs of Córdoba.

and you are aware of the pogroms in 1066 and the forced conversions in 1165.

Medieval Spain and Portugal was the scene of almost constant warfare between Muslims and Christians. Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Al-Andalus to ravage the Christian Spanish and Portuguese kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In raid against Lisbon in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves.[32]

wiki

sometimes the golden age of one "other" is at the expense of another "other"


its a bit like me harking back to the golden age of the British empire.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I didn't come here to *like* all what others have to say but to exchange thoughts and ideas, kai.

I know that many might not trust some islamic resources so i found something more acceptable to you. :)

From: BBC - Religion & Ethics - Muslim Spain (711-1492): Conquest

-------------------------​

The conquest

The traditional story is that in the year 711, an oppressed Christian chief, Julian, went to Musa ibn Nusair, the governor of North Africa, with a plea for help against the tyrannical Visigoth ruler of Spain, Roderick.

Musa responded by sending the young general Tariq bin Ziyad with an army of 7000 troops. The name Gibraltar is derived from Jabal At-Tariq which is Arabic for 'Rock of Tariq' named after the place where the Muslim army landed.

The story of the appeal for help is not universally accepted. There is no doubt that Tariq invaded Spain, but the reason for it may have more to do with the Muslim drive to enlarge their territory.

The Muslim army defeated the Visigoth army easily, and Roderick was killed in battle.
After the first victory, the Muslims conquered most of Spain and Portugal with little difficulty, and in fact with little opposition. By 720 Spain was largely under Muslim (or Moorish, as it was called) control.

Reasons

One reason for the rapid Muslim success was the generous surrender terms that they offered the people, which contrasted with the harsh conditions imposed by the previous Visigoth rulers.

The ruling Islamic forces were made up of different nationalities, and many of the forces were converts with uncertain motivation, so the establishment of a coherent Muslim state was not easy.

-------------------------​

So, you see, the point here wasn't who invaded whom and why, but how they were treating each other, and how they were seeing the 'other', if you know what i mean.​

That's because, invading nations was the trend at that time, and it's so hard to gather all the reasons for why nations were invading each other in the past here, but don't worry, i'll prepare one topic for that issue soon when i have the time for it, bcause it's indeed will definitely be so interesting to go through. :)
 

kai

ragamuffin
So, you see, the point here wasn't who invaded whom and why, but how they were treating each other, and how they were seeing the 'other', if you know what i mean.​

a point i would bring up would be that the treatment of jews and christians was not consistant and changed over the years,in particularly from the 11th century onwards, i think Islam itself was going through a change​
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
a point i would bring up would be that the treatment of jews and christians was not consistant and changed over the years,in particularly from the 11th century onwards, i think Islam itself was going through a change​

I would like to read more about that if you have some links. :)

Anyway, in general, it's a basic issue in our belief system to respect them well and grant them their rights fully, and guard them even with our lives if someone from the outside tried to attack the city, country, etc. Nevertheless, it might be true that sometimes, they weren't being treated in a good manner, but if you searched more about it, you will find out, at the same period you mentioned, the muslims themselves might not had treated "each other" well on the first place. Many times, the muslims themselves were in a bad condition and fighting each other, but when their civilization was at it's peak, they were treating everybody in a good manner.

Usually, at that time, when great nations feel that they have a great power and a respectful and fearful nations, they were opressing others and harassing them, unlike the Muslims, who were, the more they grow and get strength, the more they be good to the 'others'.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, the name of the thread has been changed. :)

I'll read your links and i'll get back to you, thank you.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I read your first link and i found this:
During these successive waves of violence against non-Muslims, many Jewish and even Muslim scholars left the Muslim-controlled portion of Iberia for the then-still relatively tolerant city of Toledo ...

So, what does this tell us, kai?

Both, Muslims and Jewish scholars were against this, and you said in your previous post "that the treatment of jews and christians was not consistant", which also is another sign that even though the Muslims were at their ultimate power, as a belief, they didn't persecute Jews and Christians, and if it happened, so that was because of politics, and sometimes, corrupted new caliphs.

Kai, i know how much you love politics, but i wanted for this thread to be about the treatment of each other based on "belief" but not "politics", and i promised you that i would go into another discussion about the influence of politics in our relationship.

But before that, i wanted to clarify something in this thread, which is that, as a belief system, we shouldn't have a problem to live peacefully with each other, and we shouldn't allow media or the current political disputes to shape our relationships, and the relationships of the generations to come, otherwise, the followers of these three faiths, will bring the world to it's knees.

I hope you got what i mean this time. :)
 

kai

ragamuffin
I read your first link and i found this:


So, what does this tell us, kai?

Both, Muslims and Jewish scholars were against this, and you said in your previous post "that the treatment of jews and christians was not consistant", which also is another sign that even though the Muslims were at their ultimate power, as a belief, they didn't persecute Jews and Christians, and if it happened, so that was because of politics, and sometimes, corrupted new caliphs.

Kai, i know how much you love politics, but i wanted for this thread to be about the treatment of each other based on "belief" but not "politics", and i promised you that i would go into another discussion about the influence of politics in our relationship.

But before that, i wanted to clarify something in this thread, which is that, as a belief system, we shouldn't have a problem to live peacefully with each other, and we shouldn't allow media or the current political disputes to shape our relationships, and the relationships of the generations to come, otherwise, the followers of these three faiths, will bring the world to it's knees.

I hope you got what i mean this time. :)

yeah i got it, you just want to talk about the good times ,and leave out the problems , the problems stem from beliefs don't they, the three faiths have never really got on,
The golden age of Al Andalus is the Islamic term for the occupation of the Iberian peninsular by "Moors" however you look at it ,any period of enlightenment was temporary.
Belief systems depend to much on who is believing and politics were inevitably intertwined in religion at that time.
i thought Islam was not just a belief but a way of life ? if so it becomes a culture so its also inevitable that it should clash with a different belief based culture.

i may not be the right person for this thread so i will watch and maybe learn.


peace Kai
 
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Bishadi

Active Member
So, as a belief, how Jews and Christians think of Muslims and what they believe in, and how they believe we should be treated and dealt with?
From this ‘I’ Islam is one of the greatest arena’s of human compassion next to the eastern sects. The west has nothing on Islam at its core and if more people understood that Muslim’s protected more of our current knowledge from being destroyed by the religious right of the west in the 12-16oo’s maybe more would understand just how much they should be appreciated.


It is only because of what happened in WWII that fueled one of the ‘other’ brothers of Abraham to actually consider their sect as being abused to the extent, they need the identity of a ‘home’ hence Israel was born.

We in the west saw, that hey Hitler beat them up pretty bad, and the Palestinians are like the North American Indians, old school so to modernize the region does both some good; so the US supported the landing of the cruise liners on the beaches of Palestine in the late 30’s-early 40’s…. and we armed them, help them become a state within someone else’s land because the US was told it was the compassionate thing to do.

So now, we in the US, have created a Governing body for the Jewish institution within a majority Muslim homeland. Surely modernizing the people with more corruption than ever before (one reason Osama hates the US) all the while siding with a religious movement that now believes with all their might, that the messiah will not come until the mount is rebuilt with a temple….. and this is enough to **** off mary poppins herself.

Christianity already thinks messiah has come, Much of Islam is happy with Mohammed but Israel, they are not happy and never will be; until they have identity and the mount; and with all their global power they have now in the capitalistic machine…

It will get real ugly before it gets better.

Was this observed in a big enough scale for you?
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
yeah i got it, you just want to talk about the good times ,and leave out the problems , the problems stem from beliefs don't they, the three faiths have never really got on

In term of beliefs, i was trying to prove to you that from an islamic point of view, we don't have a problem with them, and some conflicts might arise for political reasons. I still fail to see how you could conclude that the problem stem from beliefs. Do you mean "religious" beliefs or personal ones?

The golden age of Al Andalus is the Islamic term for the occupation of the Iberian peninsular by "Moors" however you look at it ,any period of enlightenment was temporary.
Belief systems depend to much on who is believing and politics were inevitably intertwined in religion at that time.
i thought Islam was not just a belief but a way of life ? if so it becomes a culture so its also inevitable that it should clash with a different belief based culture.

It's true that Islam is a way of life, but we weren't having perfect caliphs all the time, so sometimes, the caliphs was doing things which might considered to be "unislamic" by the scholars of that time, not to mention the times where some caliphs jailed respectful muslim scholars for having different opinion than theirs.

i may not be the right person for this thread so i will watch and maybe learn.


peace Kai

You are always welcome to discuss with me in this thread, and i don't see why you think you are not the right person for it. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From this ‘I’ Islam is one of the greatest arena’s of human compassion next to the eastern sects. The west has nothing on Islam at its core and if more people understood that Muslim’s protected more of our current knowledge from being destroyed by the religious right of the west in the 12-16oo’s maybe more would understand just how much they should be appreciated.

It is only because of what happened in WWII that fueled one of the ‘other’ brothers of Abraham to actually consider their sect as being abused to the extent, they need the identity of a ‘home’ hence Israel was born.

We in the west saw, that hey Hitler beat them up pretty bad, and the Palestinians are like the North American Indians, old school so to modernize the region does both some good; so the US supported the landing of the cruise liners on the beaches of Palestine in the late 30’s-early 40’s…. and we armed them, help them become a state within someone else’s land because the US was told it was the compassionate thing to do.

So now, we in the US, have created a Governing body for the Jewish institution within a majority Muslim homeland. Surely modernizing the people with more corruption than ever before (one reason Osama hates the US) all the while siding with a religious movement that now believes with all their might, that the messiah will not come until the mount is rebuilt with a temple….. and this is enough to **** off mary poppins herself.

Christianity already thinks messiah has come, Much of Islam is happy with Mohammed but Israel, they are not happy and never will be; until they have identity and the mount; and with all their global power they have now in the capitalistic machine…

It will get real ugly before it gets better.

Was this observed in a big enough scale for you?

This was indeed observed, but as you know, poltical conflicts always end, and new nations always rise or disappear, but all which will remain is the heritage and knowledge of those who were there before us, and if there was no solid belief in the respect for others to believe in what they want, that would make it difficult for the typical followers of all these three faiths to live peacefully with each other.
 

kai

ragamuffin
In term of beliefs, i was trying to prove to you that from an islamic point of view, we don't have a problem with them, and some conflicts might arise for political reasons. I still fail to see how you could conclude that the problem stem from beliefs. Do you mean "religious" beliefs or personal ones? from an Islamic point of view what were you doing in the Iberian Peninsular in the first place?



It's true that Islam is a way of life, but we weren't having perfect caliphs all the time, so sometimes, the caliphs was doing things which might considered to be "unislamic" by the scholars of that time, not to mention the times where some caliphs jailed respectful muslim scholars for having different opinion than theirs.

do you consider any Caliph to have been you ideal Caliph?



You are always welcome to discuss with me in this thread, and i don't see why you think you are not the right person for it. :)
thank you
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
I admire the Muslim's unwavering faith and dedication to G-d and only G-d. As a fellow monotheist I see much more in common with Muslims than I see differences.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I admire the Muslim's unwavering faith and dedication to G-d and only G-d. As a fellow monotheist I see much more in common with Muslims than I see differences.

interesting , but i think i will not hijack TashanS thread by asking you how? maybe some other time.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
from an Islamic point of view what were you doing in the Iberian Peninsular in the first place?

I don't get what you mean in here. Can you elaborate please?

do you consider any Caliph to have been you ideal Caliph?

After the four rightous caliphs who followed prophet Mohammed, my ideal caliph is Umar bin Abdul Aziz.


thank you

Welcome. :)

interesting , but i think i will not hijack TashanS thread by asking you how? maybe some other time.

I really don't get you, kai. I don't understand why asking him would consider as you were hijacking my thread?
 
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kai

ragamuffin
[/color]

I don't get what you mean in here. Can you elaborate please? why did they invade and occupy the Iberian peninsular?



After the four rightous caliphs who followed prophet Mohammed, my idea caliph is Umar bin Abdul Aziz.
"Rulers usually appoint people to watch over their subjects. I appoint you a watcher over me and my behaviour. If you find me at fault in word or action guide me and stop me from doing it." i can see why




I really don't get you, kai. I don't understand why asking him would consider as you were hijacking my thread?
your not supposed to get me:rolleyes: but i didnt want to start rambling on with someone else , of course if NoahideHiker wishes to say why then alls good
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
why did they invade and occupy the Iberian peninsular?

Post # 4.

"The traditional story is that in the year 711, an oppressed Christian chief, Julian, went to Musa ibn Nusair, the governor of North Africa, with a plea for help against the tyrannical Visigoth ruler of Spain, Roderick.

Musa responded by sending the young general Tariq bin Ziyad with an army of 7000 troops. The name Gibraltar is derived from Jabal At-Tariq which is Arabic for 'Rock of Tariq' named after the place where the Muslim army landed."


"Rulers usually appoint people to watch over their subjects. I appoint you a watcher over me and my behaviour. If you find me at fault in word or action guide me and stop me from doing it."
i can see why

I assume that was said by him?

your not supposed to get me:rolleyes: but i didnt want to start rambling on with someone else , of course if NoahideHiker wishes to say why then alls good

I see. :)
 
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