About Prayer

[cardero]

I'm not talking about candy bars here. I'm talking about some of the worst humanitarian disasters around the world - hurricanes, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing.

But maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand that these are really not that important in the scheme of things. God, for reasons I am too dumb to understand, has determined that human suffering is just not at the top of his priority list. But making sure two men don't have sex together - that's very important to him, right?

To break it down, there are three possibilities here:
1) Either there is no god listening to prayers
2) or he is powerless to stop these disasters (the same God who created the earth in 6 days?)
3) or he lacks the compassion necessary to end human suffering.

I feel pretty confident that the answer is #1

In a world where everyone must die at some time and in some way (with no guarantees that I am aware of) you forgot the possibility that we choose when, where and how we die. If that is our purpose than a prayer to GOD is not going to have the desired effect.

 

[Anon]

I'm not only talking about death, but human suffering. Millions of people pray for an end to human suffering, but there is no effect. If God created us, then he created human suffering, and he refuses to relieve us of it. What could anybody possibly pray for which is more noble or important than an end to suffering? What God would impose suffering on people to begin with? If this is the god you believe in, I truly feel sorry for you.

 

[Aqualung]

I'm not talking about candy bars here. I'm talking about some of the worst humanitarian disasters around the world - hurricanes, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing.

And I'm talking about that you can't see the big picture. You're thinking very in the present and very selfishly. "Oh, no. I'm about to die, therefore God must not love me." You have no idea what would happen if those things just ceased. The concequenses of cessation would have to be a lot worse than the actual deed themselves, for God to allow them. You can't see that there is a purpose, and a bigger plan. And that death is not the worse thing in the world.

But maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand that these are really not that important in the scheme of things. God, for reasons I am too dumb to understand, has determined that human suffering is just not at the top of his priority list. But making sure two men don't have sex together - that's very important to him, right?

God is just a dissapointed with the people who go around killing other people, like with ethnic cleansing. But had he ever shown to a gay man and said, "stop being gay!"? No. He lets them do there own thing, too.

 

[Aqualung]

I'm not only talking about death, but human suffering. Millions of people pray for an end to human suffering, but there is no effect. If God created us, then he created human suffering, and he refuses to relieve us of it. What could anybody possibly pray for which is more noble or important than an end to suffering? What God would impose suffering on people to begin with? If this is the god you believe in, I truly feel sorry for you.

There will be an end to human suffereing. But it's selfish and egotistical to think that it should only come when YOU are ready, and when YOUR sufferings are too hard, not when it will actually do the best for OTHERS.

 

[Anon]

Yeah, I'm selfish for wanting an end to other peoples' suffering. The problem, Aqualung, is that you don't have any rational response to what I am saying, so you just make some crazy accusation to change the subject. The fact is that any god (or any other being for that matter) who is capable of ending suffering and instead just sits by and watches, cannot be described as good or compassionate.

 

[Aqualung]

okay, man. you can disregard everything i've said in the way of evidence, and just focus onmy accusations. the fact is, i told you a ton oof reasons why a person would not be ablt to know what would happen if god answered everyone's prayers. there are bigger consequences than you can see.

 

[SoyLeche]

Something has been on my mind, and this seem like as good a place to get it off as any. In discussing human suffering, I think that things get into better perspective when we understand that we are here not just to exist, but to learn and grow. I believe that each of us has potential for great things, and we would not be able to accomplish them if we weren't able to sacrifice a bit of ourselves. People always point out that this life is not the end of our existance, and use that to explain why suffering here isn't so bad. What is not as well understood is that this is not the beginning of our existance either. We chose to be here! We knew what was comming, and we rejoiced in the opportunity that would be given to us. We don't now grasp how this all works, but it does. Growth doesn't come from ease, and we are here to grow. Some people's trials are harder than others, at certain times. If we allow it, however, we will be given the opportunity to be tried, in a way that is as big a test as Abraham's was to him. Trust God. He sees the whole picture, and will guide us to our potential, even if we would rather not take the road.

Sorry if this is a bit jumbled. It's bedtime.

 

[Anon]

everything i've said in the way of evidence

I don't think you know what evidence is. You have not given one shred of evidence about anything. All you do is make excuse after excuse about why every conceivable type of prayer does not get answered (either it's too selfish a prayer, or God cannot handle it, or God has some complex plan we cannot comprehend, etc). But what you can't do is give EVIDENCE that ANY prayer has EVER been answered, or that any prayer has ever even been heard.

 

[Aqualung]

Why is it not evidence that God has a complex plan? Do you know how intricate and delicate the weather systems are? One change in one area can effect all over the place. Heavy hurricane seasons are caused by (I'm not sure which one, but I know it's one of them) either slightly warmer winters or slightly cooler winters. There could be large scale reprocussions to stopping or diverting a hurricane. I can' remember who said it, or if it was in our "other thread," but they chose to live in hurrican country, and they can buy insurance. Also, it's not the end of the world. There are greater things to come, but, as sammy hagar says, "you gotta walk through the darkness before you stand in the light."

 

[Anon]

Why is it not evidence that God has a complex plan?

Because for something to be evidence, it needs to be supported by facts, not guesses.

 

[Aqualung]

Because for something to be evidence, it needs to be supported by facts, not guesses.

You're just guessing that the reason your prayers aren't being answerd is because there is not god. You're not basing that in evidence at all.

 

[Anon]

That's true. I cannot prove there is no God up there listening to prayers. The same way you cannot prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn up there watching over us (http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm). It's hard to prove something doesn't exist.

The problem with God and prayer is that there is no proof that they do exist. In fact, there is no rational reason whatsoever to think that prayers might be heard - after all, people are praying all of the time, and there is no indication that any of them have ever been answered.

The one thing there IS proof of, however, is that the Bible - the foundation of Christianity and Judaism, is wrong. There are many things in the bible which have been proven to be untrue. Now, if this flawed book is the basis of somebody's religion, and it is based on this religion that a person says prayer exists, then I would say that they are on pretty shakey ground. This of course doesn't prove that prayer doesn't work, it just shows that for Christians and Jews at least, there is no reason to believe that prayer does work.

 

[michel]

That's true. I cannot prove there is no God up there listening to prayers. The same way you cannot prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn up there watching over us (http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm). It's hard to prove something doesn't exist.

The problem with God and prayer is that there is no proof that they do exist. In fact, there is no rational reason whatsoever to think that prayers might be heard - after all, people are praying all of the time, and there is no indication that any of them have ever been answered.

The one thing there IS proof of, however, is that the Bible - the foundation of Christianity and Judaism, is wrong. There are many things in the bible which have been proven to be untrue. Now, if this flawed book is the basis of somebody's religion, and it is based on this religion that a person says prayer exists, then I would say that they are on pretty shakey ground. This of course doesn't prove that prayer doesn't work, it just shows that for Christians and Jews at least, there is no reason to believe that prayer does work.

I would like to know from where all these pink unicorns come; they seem to be mentioned on so many threads, and i haven't seen one yet!

The only point I would like to make, anon, is that I do not believe in God because of scripture; I believe in God because I know he is there. I realize that that may sound absurd, and I am prepared to be laughed at for it, but it is the honest truth.

I agree that the Bible is flawed; I am not one who takes the Bible and follows it to the letter; but I believe in prayer, and I believe God hears our prayers. Does that mean that my ground is even more shakey ?

 

[Anon]

I would like to know from where all these pink unicorns come; they seem to be mentioned on so many threads, and i haven't seen one yet!

That's the whole point! There is no invisible pink unicorn. But the arguments for it's existence are very similar to theists "proofs" of thier gods' existence.

I believe in God because I know he is there.

How do you know? Has he ever made contact with you? Acknowledged receiving one of your prayers? Do you have some piece of evidence which proves he is there?
You don't know he is there. You believe he is there.

"I know God exists even though there is no evidence of his existence" is a completely irrational statement, just like "I know the Invisible Purple Unicorn exists even though there is no evidence of it".

Doesn't it bother you that if you were born in Thailand, you would probably be a devoted Buddhist? Or if you were born in India, you would probably be a Hindu? Or if you were born a few thousand years ago you would probably believe that gods live in trees? There is no evidence to prove these religions, but people have been willing to devote their lives to them, and sometimes die for them. How do you know your religion is right and everybody else's is wrong? Are you smarter than everybody else?

 

[Aqualung]

Acknowledged receiving one of your prayers?

He has to me.:woohoo:

 

[michel]

That's the whole point! There is no invisible pink unicorn. But the arguments for it's existence are very similar to theists "proofs" of thier gods' existence.

How do you know? Has he ever made contact with you? Acknowledged receiving one of your prayers? Do you have some piece of evidence which proves he is there?
You don't know he is there. You believe he is there.

"I know God exists even though there is no evidence of his existence" is a completely irrational statement, just like "I know the Invisible Purple Unicorn exists even though there is no evidence of it".

Doesn't it bother you that if you were born in Thailand, you would probably be a devoted Buddhist? Or if you were born in India, you would probably be a Hindu? Or if you were born a few thousand years ago you would probably believe that gods live in trees? There is no evidence to prove these religions, but people have been willing to devote their lives to them, and sometimes die for them. How do you know your religion is right and everybody else's is wrong? Are you smarter than everybody else?

Anon - the bit about the pink unicorns was a joke; it's been used so often here that I wish someone would pick another mythical animal for a change - that's all I meant.

............."I know God exists even though there is no evidence of his existence" is a completely irrational statement"............. so you would call most people who have a conviction that there is a deity irrational in their thinking?

Your comment about where I was born, having a predetermined idea, consequent to where I came from - until about six months ago, I was very much drawn to Buddhism; look around you at the forum. We have a Rastafarian, living in Canada, who believes in ancient Egyptian beliefs - yours is no argument, you know.

And I don't know that religion is right and everyone else is wrong; Religion (Christianity in my case) is right for me - that is what I believe in; I can't say that I would'nt feel some form of Joy if ypi decided to become a Christiam, but that's about all. What you believe in is up to you; if you are happy with atheism, then so be it.

One thing I ask though, Can you make the unicorns a different colour ? - I prefer blue ones.:biglaugh:

 

[Anon]

I don't suppose God gave you the acknowledgement in writing or anything?

One day when I was young, and alone in my bedroom, I said (something to the effect of), "God, if you are out there, I would love to believe in you. But I need a sign that you are really there. If you can speak, speak to me, if you can't speak, put a yellow star on my bedroom ceiling as a sign that you heard me. Or do something else to show me you are there. Then I will believe in you."

People can claim that God speaks to them, and obviously I have no way to prove it didn't happen. But I am pretty sure that there is no god speaking to me.

 

[Anon]

so you would call most people who have a conviction that there is a deity irrational in their thinking?

Absolutely. At least irrational about this particular conviction.

until about six months ago, I was very much drawn to Buddhism

So you had some interest in Buddhism, or you actually believed in Buddhism?

 

[michel]

Absolutely. At least irrational about this particular conviction.

So you had some interest in Buddhism, or you actually believed in Buddhism?

Ibelieved in the Buddhist philosophy; I also used to believe in reincarnation (Which is not strictly a Buddhist tenet)- that is probably the biggest shift in my beliefs; there is nothing anti - Christian about the bulk of Buddhist Philosophy; most of it is just as pertinent now.

 

[Anon]

My comment about people having predetermined ideas is a very valid one. MOST children of Christians are Christian. MOST children of Buddhists are Buddhist. There are some exceptions, of course. But for the most part, people believe what they are taught. Their ideas about where they came from have more to do with where they are born and who their parents are, than they have to do about actual fact.