ecco
Veteran Member
What's your point? There are many Christians who get abortions.
BTW are you an atheist as you just stated or an agnostic as your profile reads?
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Abortion: What's The Big Deal?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
BTW are you an atheist as you just stated or an agnostic as your profile reads?
In 1857 the SCOTUS ruled that black people couldn't be US citizens.
I don't consider SCOTUS to be a moral authority.
Tom
Because God is an immoral jerk who endorses slavery because His Chosen People aren't "ready" for a more humane social safety net?
Tom
Skwim
Veteran Member
Fine, then I won't expect you to be able put abortions in perspective. Nature (god) has no trouble in assigning millions upon millions of fetuses to death,* killing fetuses every day as regular as clockwork, but when it comes to humans doing the same it becomes what, an abomination? So, a part of natures ongoing, natural operation cannot be abetted by humans because . . . ?Oh, then I'm just putting drownings into perspective. If people condemn me for my drowning murders, then they better be equally mad at rivers for flooding!!
Because most people realize that nature isn't an anthroporphized thing, and realize there's no point in getting angry at natural disaster deaths, but will still get mad at a person doing the same thing that nature does in many other contexts.
What?? You saw how bad the California wildfires were this year, why are you so mad at me for burning down your house?? Why aren't you equally mad at droughts?!It's just observably absurd for any issue other than abortion . . .
Words are cheap, but so as not to brand your words "cheap," exactly which fallacy of logic have I committed?
* There are an estimated 211,000,000 pregnancies in the world each year. (41%, 86,000,000, unintended)
source
Of these, on average nature is killing 31,500,000 (15%) fetuses every year, or 86,301 per day. And if god has any say in how the world operates obviously he doesn't care enough about fetuses to stop their ongoing natural deaths: 86,300 natural fetal deaths per day.
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ecco
Veteran Member
ecco previously
If you read even just the small portion of the ruling I posted, you would have seen that SCOTUS based its decision on the "moral authority" of secular and religious teachings of the past. The Justices did not use their own concepts of morality.
In any case, it is far better than books written by people 3000, 2000 and 1500 years ago.
At least the US Constitution provides ways to correct injustices of the past.
At least SCOTUS recognizes mistakes of the past and attempts to correct them.
Let's remember that Southern slave owners justified slavery with excerpts from the bible. Let's remember that the KKK based its beliefs on the teachings of the bible.
Who or what do you consider to be a moral authority?
We (USA) do not live in a theocracy. We are, officially, a secular society. In 1973 the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) issued a ruling on the matter of abortion.
If you read even just the small portion of the ruling I posted, you would have seen that SCOTUS based its decision on the "moral authority" of secular and religious teachings of the past. The Justices did not use their own concepts of morality.
In any case, it is far better than books written by people 3000, 2000 and 1500 years ago.
At least the US Constitution provides ways to correct injustices of the past.
At least SCOTUS recognizes mistakes of the past and attempts to correct them.
Let's remember that Southern slave owners justified slavery with excerpts from the bible. Let's remember that the KKK based its beliefs on the teachings of the bible.
Who or what do you consider to be a moral authority?
siti
Well-Known Member
I think it might be even worse than that (or better depending on which way you look at it) - perhaps the "image of God" that a potential human life carries is that of the logos spermatikos (the generative or creative principle) - God as a sperm (perhaps). But in truth, nature sows a hell of a lot of seeds that fail to reach the full measure of the living organism it had the potential to become. Its tragic - mostly because it reminds us - and all too often - of our own mortality - but is it really a moral question (I mean fundamentally - obvious it is a moral question in the "pro-life" debate context) - or is it just another way of nature doing what nature does?
Dell
Asteroid insurance?
So... stating "Christians who get abortions" implies only that Christians make that mistake too, that's irrelevant. My point should be obvious.
BTW atheist or agnostic is like a shade of difference to me.. I say "a"-"theist" mostly around Christian's because I'm an atheist of the bibles theology and doctrine of God. I use agnostic around science minded people because there is a very small possibility that a God like intelligence (not a Deity) exist in the universe and larger greater possibility in a multiverse. An intelligence acting as God that may have created life as we know it. Science expecially physics leans that the Bibles God CANT exist but a God like intelligence might.
My use of the word "agnostic" maybe is not the proper use of it, but its probably how its commonly used by most so called agnostics.
siti
Well-Known Member
No it doesn't - science doesn't "lean" any which way at all on the God question - it is irrelevant to science and science assumes an absence of supernatural intervention in the world which makes science athe-istic - i.e. "without God". People sometimes call that "methodological naturalism" - but it conscientiously and deliberately rules out God as an explanation for any observation. And that certainly would include any "God-like" intelligent force at work in the universe - I don't know about the "multiverse" because that is (at least so far) an example of a whole host of speculative (not genuinely scientific) ideas that are (as Wolfgang Pauli once described scientifically non-falsifiable ideas) "not even wrong".
Dell
Asteroid insurance?
I think your making more out of that statement than neccessary, you should get the point, we are saying almost the same thing about science's view of the existence of God. Except that all physicist, cosmologist and astrobiologist I've read after and watched lecture have stopped short of saying a super intelligence and multiverse is ruled out but doubtful. Most have admitted to being wrong so many times that they dont 100 percent rule out anything not impossible until its proven false. There is a big divide amongst scientists on those very topics. I.e. string theory, multiverse, extraterrestrial life, time travel, and so it goes on..
But my original post has jumped track... abortion, the termination of human life on purpose, is a big deal, how can it not be? Responsible people who dont want a pregnancy use contraceptives. That is not a religious right idea but one that is also believed by Atheists (or agnostics) like me... We wouldn't even think of driving without insurance or pointing a loaded gun carelessly. Its amazing how diverse opinions are of this topic!!! Abortions would be a rare event just by educating, using common sense, and being responsible. It's a big deal when a child has to pay with its life (born or unborn) for its parents lack of responsibility.
siti
Well-Known Member
And that's all great in a world in which human beings - especially young and inexperienced human beings - rarely make mistakes or act on impulse. I don't know which world you live in - but in the world I grew up in and in the world my kids and now grandchildren are growing up in, people make mistakes - and if there is a God - judging by the relatively poor record of pregnancies that fail to make it to full term - so does he. Our kids are fortunate - they have parents who understand this and there is no need for them to take the abortion option - unless it were required for the sake of the mother's life - which has, thankfully, never happened. But not every kid has understanding parents - some kids (for example) have religiously motivated "pro-life" parents who firmly believe there is a superior intelligence at large that really wants them to - no demands that they must - struggle for the rest of their natural life caring for a child they had not intended to have - and a child that will grow up (in all probability) sensing or knowing that s/he was not wanted. Is that really what a superior intelligence would do?
Dell
Asteroid insurance?
Yea kids do make mistakes.. and like you thankfully my kids never experienced this problem also. But if the problem was a terrible STD instead of a pregnancy caused by the same exact carelessness? That problem is far less forgiving... with pregnancy at least it is forgiving and adoption is a good option. I know several adopted children and adults and all were thankful that a troubled parent at least chose life and a good home for them.
I know what you mean about the prolife drum some wacko churches beat. A mothers life cant be put in jeopardy by some religious wacko church or husbands ideas of what Jesus would do.
One cant expect a perfect world in regards to abortion.. but it cant be dismissed as not a big deal.
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siti
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing you haven't managed to poll the opinions of aborted fetuses - I mean I know that sounds grotesque but the point is - asking an adult if they are glad they are alive rather than having been aborted is just a little bit one-sided wouldn't you say? And I know from friends and relatives who have adopted and given up for adoption how difficult things like judging when and what to tell these children about their biological parents can be and how frighteningly destabilizing it can be when they discover the truth. All that said - I have still to meet one who genuinely thought they would have been better off dead - even if they do sometimes think or say that. There is evidence that adoptees are more likely to suffer psychiatric disorders and substance abuse - but I guess some part (at least) of that might be genetic. I suppose that biological parents who have a genetic propensity towards psychiatric disorders and substance abuse might be more likely to give - or have to give - their children up for adoption.
I wasn't dismissing the abortion as a big deal - I was dismissing the religious pro-life argument as inconsistent. "Thinning out" the population by allowing organisms in the least favourable conditions to die is simply what nature does. Humans have practiced abortion since ancient times - at least 3000+ years. In some cultures, infanticide (and especially female infanticide) was common even up to relatively recent times. And what we didn't terminate before or shortly after birth for cultural reasons, nature would sort out for us - many of the children of earlier generations even in our "enlightened" countries would have been lucky to reach their 5th birthday. God didn't seem to give a monkey's about them. So why does he suddenly want to poke his nose in when a pregnant mother makes a conscientious decision not to carry a child that she has neither the desire nor the means (financial, emotional, physical) to care for properly? Of course its a big deal - for the mother.
Dell
Asteroid insurance?
The idea of an all knowing caring loving God allowing world suffering because of one man's deceived disobedience of eating fruit off a tree he put there in the first place along with a talking snake never equated to me either.
One good thing regarding abortions is the trend is going down last I saw. Maybe people are becoming more educated and reasonable.
One good thing regarding abortions is the trend is going down last I saw. Maybe people are becoming more educated and reasonable.
siti
Well-Known Member
More educated I guess is the key - that and the more ready availability of contraceptives (despite religious opposition).