a rather far-fetched historical "what-if"

[Eddi]

I have an historical what-if.........

(it is a bit far-fetched)

What if the Americas were never populated by human beings.........

And instead, what if a species of humanoid sapient lizardmen evolved there that were as distantly related to humans as humans are to crocodiles (and who hatched out of eggs) - but never expanded out of the Americas?

But imagine these lizardmen were a lot like human beings due to convergent evolution

And by the time Columbus "discovered" the Americas they had laser-rifles, nuclear bombs, tanks and the internet and the humans from Europe only swords and muskets?

And what if they worshiped a lizardman who they believed once walked the Earth and who was fully God and fully lizardman?

What do you think would have happened when the European explorers first made landfall on the Americas?

What do you think our would our world look like today?

Personally I have no idea but I think it would be interesting to speculate

 

[Stevicus]

I have an historical what-if.........

(it is a bit far-fetched)

What if the Americas were never populated by human beings.........

And instead, what if a species of humanoid sapient lizardmen evolved there that were as distantly related to humans as humans are to crocodiles (and who hatched out of eggs) - but never expanded out of the Americas?

But imagine these lizardmen were a lot like human beings due to convergent evolution

And by the time Columbus "discovered" the Americas they had laser-rifles, nuclear bombs, tanks and the internet and the humans from Europe only swords and muskets?

And what if they worshiped a lizardman who they believed once walked the Earth and who was fully God and fully lizardman?

What do you think would have happened when the European explorers first made landfall on the Americas?

What do you think our would our world look like today?

Personally I have no idea but I think it would be interesting to speculate

Lizardmen with laser-rifles, nuclear bombs, and tanks vs. humans with only swords and muskets? Looks like Columbus would have had a bad day.

If there had been no previous contact with humans, then one might ask why the lizardmen would need laser rifles, nuclear bombs, and tanks if not to fight each other? If they were divided into separate nations against each other, then that may be helpful. There could be human nations allied with lizard nations.

 

[Eddi]

If there had been no previous contact with humans, then one might ask why the lizardmen would need laser rifles, nuclear bombs, and tanks if not to fight each other?

Maybe they achieved political unity in a peaceful way, having always been plagued by war?

And maybe they had some knowledge of the humans but didn't think much of them but kept an army "just in case"? And to maintain law and order as per Hobbes's Leviathan?

Perhaps the Christian humans would come to think they were devils? And that their technologies were satanic?

I imagine they'd have launched a crusade but the Lizardmen would have just vaporized their ships as they appeared over the horizon

I think that would have made the humans much more insular

 

[Stevicus]

Maybe they achieved political unity in a peaceful way, having always been plagued by war?

And maybe they had some knowledge of the humans but didn't think much of them but kept an army "just in case"? And to maintain law and order as per Hobbes's Leviathan?

Perhaps the Christian humans would come to think they were devils? And that their technologies were satanic?

I imagine they'd have launched a crusade but the Lizardmen would have just vaporized their ships as they appeared over the horizon

I think that would have made the humans much more insular

I really have no idea, but it sounds like it might make an interesting sci-fi story. I'm reminded of the Star Trek Voyager episode "Distant Origin":

Distant Origin (episode)

An alien scientist finds evidence linking his species' ancestry to Earth, but government officials refuse to accept his evidence because it conflicts with existing doctrine. A pair of Voth, a species of reptilian humanoids, named Forra Gegen and Tova Veer conduct an archaeological investigation...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

They encountered a race of reptiles which they traced their origins back to Earth, to the time of the dinosaurs. Apparently, they evolved to the point where they developed space travel and left Earth before the great cataclysm which killed off the dinosaurs. But in your scenario, it would be as if a sentient, advanced race of lizard people survived and remained on Earth, and presumably in control of Earth, long before humans evolved into what they are today. Would humans evolve the same way? Would humans even develop any organized, literate societies at all?

It is an interesting scenario that's worth pondering. Stories such as Planet of the Apes makes one wonder what the world would be like if there was another literate, talking, sentient species other than humans on Earth. Whether it be apes, lizard people, dolphins - or whatever it might be.

 

[Eddi]

Would humans evolve the same way? Would humans even develop any organized, literate societies at all?

I think they would if the Lizardpeople never left the Americas

But I doubt that Europe would come to dominate Africa and Asia as it did historically

 

[Father Heathen]

If the lizard people had that level of technology, wouldn't they have "discovered" and contacted the outside world first?

 

[Eddi]

If the lizard people had that level of technology, wouldn't they have "discovered" and contacted the outside world first?

Perhaps they would dislike travelling to places by sea? Perhaps due to some ancient religious prejudice against ships or the sea?

But then maybe they'd seen the rest of the world from Earth's orbit but decided not to interfere, for some philosophical reason?

Perhaps they would consider the humans to be dangerous, or a source of infectious diseases?

 

[siti]

What if the Americas were never populated by human beings.........

And instead, what if a species of humanoid sapient lizardmen evolved there that were as distantly related to humans as humans are to crocodiles (and who hatched out of eggs) - but never expanded out of the Americas?

But how would the British Royal Family have got to America in the first place?

You really must stop reading David Icke.

Perhaps they would consider the humans to be dangerous, or a source of infectious diseases?

Don't tell me Putin is a reptilian as well!

 

[Eddi]

But how would the British Royal Family have got to America in the first place?

You really must stop reading David Icke.


Don't tell me Putin is a reptilian as well!

I think that if there was to be another civilized species on our planet and if it wasn't a species of mammals then it would most likely be a species of reptile

I can't imagine it being birds, as they don't really have hands so couldn't manipulate things

Just as the ancestors of humans once walked on all fours humanoid reptiles could have evolved from reptiles who also walked on all fours

Convergent evolution

 

[siti]

I can't imagine it being birds, as they don't really have hands so couldn't manipulate things

Point taken, but I had my money on gallus gallus sapiens...the hand thing is a bit of a problem, but they already have fairly complex vocalization and they wouldn't have to invent the pen before they could have writing, they could just pluck out a quill and start jotting...but I doubt all that much would change overall...having a bunch of headless chickens running the world would probably land us more or less exactly where we are now.

 

[Stevicus]

I think they would if the Lizardpeople never left the Americas

But I doubt that Europe would come to dominate Africa and Asia as it did historically

Possibly. It's hard to imagine how there could be such a technological mismatch, though, especially if we're imagining a scenario of a peaceful, unified lizard society living lives isolated from humans and even without the humans' knowledge of their existence.

It occurs to me that a lot of the European technological and industrial developments didn't really start to take off until after they had been exploring much of the world, acquiring new lands and resources, and learning more and more about the different societies and peoples of the world.

 

[siti]

they had been exploring much of the world, acquiring new lands and resources, and learning more and more about the different societies and peoples of the world.

...what a nice way of phrasing "rape, pillage, looting and subjugation"

 

[Stevicus]

...what a nice way of phrasing "rape, pillage, looting and subjugation"

They did that, too. That's why I was having trouble imagining a unified, peaceful lizard society in the Americas, completely isolated and unknown to the humans living across the oceans. Yet, with nuclear bombs and laser rifles. All this technology that we have today came about over the course of centuries - and yes, it did include a great deal of rape, pillage, looting, and subjugation - among other atrocities. But it wasn't just that. There were other things happening, too, but they all sort of connect to each other. But I wasn't intentionally leaving that part out, if that's what you're trying to imply here.

 

[Eddi]

It's hard to imagine how there could be such a technological mismatch

They'd only need to be perhaps 300 or 400 years ahead of the humans technologically to have a huge advantage over them, I don't think that's inconceivable, especially if the Lizard people were more peaceful than the humans and/or politically unified

 

[Secret Chief]

I think there would be less Europeans.

 

[Eddi]

They did that, too. That's why I was having trouble imagining a unified, peaceful lizard society in the Americas, completely isolated and unknown to the humans living across the oceans. Yet, with nuclear bombs and laser rifles. All this technology that we have today came about over the course of centuries - and yes, it did include a great deal of rape, pillage, looting, and subjugation - among other atrocities. But it wasn't just that. There were other things happening, too, but they all sort of connect to each other. But I wasn't intentionally leaving that part out, if that's what you're trying to imply here.

I think the Lizardpeople could have invented all the things humans did in our reality but without them having wars

Perhaps they did have wars but were then unified, perhaps by some kind of reptile Messiah figure?

 

[Stevicus]

I think that if there was to be another civilized species on our planet and if it wasn't a species of mammals then it would most likely be a species of reptile

I can't imagine it being birds, as they don't really have hands so couldn't manipulate things

Just as the ancestors of humans once walked on all fours humanoid reptiles could have evolved from reptiles who also walked on all fours

Convergent evolution

I suppose I could imagine a civilized and intelligent species of bird as much as I could imagine a civilized species of reptile.

Or even plants.

 

[Eddi]

Or even plants.

Now that would be cool!

Reminds me of Day Of The Triffids

The Day of the Triffids (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stevicus]

I think the Lizardpeople could have invented all the things humans did in our reality but without them having wars

Perhaps they did have wars but were then unified, perhaps by some kind of reptile Messiah figure?

Possibly, but then, wouldn't they want to spread their religion and try to convert the humans?

They'd only need to be perhaps 300 or 400 years ahead of the humans technologically to have a huge advantage over them, I don't think that's inconceivable, especially if the Lizard people were more peaceful than the humans and/or politically unified

I'm not sure if being more peaceful would be a factor in technological advancement. But even if they were that far advanced, the idea of them remaining isolated to the Americas doesn't seem to fit. I just can't see it, if we're assuming they have 21st century technology in 1492 (or perhaps even earlier, if we consider the Vikings and their voyages to America or maybe even the Chinese, who visited even earlier).

I suppose if they didn't want to be discovered, they could have sent submarines out to sink Columbus' ships before he even arrived. Back in Spain, they would have just presumed him lost at sea. How would they know otherwise?

 

[Eddi]

the idea of them remaining isolated to the Americas doesn't seem to fit

Of course not, you're human, not a Lizard person

The two species think very differently

Perhaps they were happy with their wealth so didn't want to expand, and were unadventurous so didn't want to explore?

I suppose if they didn't want to be discovered, they could have sent submarines out to sink Columbus' ships before he even arrived. Back in Spain, they would have just presumed him lost at sea. How would they know otherwise?

What if they had an ancient prejudice against the sea?