A Discussion of the Thread: Porkchop & FFH

[Comprehend]

It has?? Can you measure it, weigh it, grab hold of it, reflect light off it, smell it does it produce sound waves without a physical medium?

Does Mormonism teach differently in this regard?

Paul, science could not detect a great many things 100 years ago that have always existed and that we can now detect. That doesn't mean those things did not exist 100 years ago, it simply meant that we didn't understand enough to know how to detect it.


D&C 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

 

[Comprehend]

You quoted two questions I asked there, which one do you mean? I may have asked if you believe our spirits are sexually begotten once but I am quite certain i have never asked the other question as I had never heard this said before.

If I have asked these several times then I apologise, your answers obviously are not sinking in and the idea must be rooted in my mind from somewhere.

I meant the question about God creating spirits sexually. I thought I remembered you asking that before and I thought it had been answered...

 

[Katzpur]

a spirit has no physical substance?

Uh... Are you saying you didn't understand what I meant? I put the words "flesh and bones" in parentheses because I was alluding to the fact that, as Jesus said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."

 

[Katzpur]

It has?? Can you measure it, weigh it, grab hold of it, reflect light off it, smell it does it produce sound waves without a physical medium?

Does Mormonism teach differently in this regard?

Joseph Smith taught that spirit is matter, but that it is such refined matter that we as mortals are normally unable to see it. I suppose that it is possible, under certain circumstances, for a human being to be able to see a spirit, because when Christ's Apostles first saw Him after His resurrection, they were afraid "because they thought they had seen a spirit." But we do not believe a spirit is tangible, which is why Jesus told His Apostles to touch the wounds in His hands and feet, thereby proving that His spirit had given new life to His physical body.

 

[*Paul*]

Its' good to know your stances on this "matter" I was unaware of this belief.

 

[Comprehend]

Uh... Are you saying you didn't understand what I meant? I put the words "flesh and bones" in parentheses because I was alluding to the fact that, as Jesus said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."

yes, I am saying I don't understand what you mean. Not having a flesh and bone body isn't the same as no physical substance at all...

 

[Katzpur]

yes, I am saying I don't understand what you mean. Not having a flesh and bone body isn't the same as no physical substance at all...

A spirit is non-corporeal. Better?

 

[Comprehend]

A spirit is non-corporeal. Better?

yes. I don't know why you need to roll your eyes. We believe that everything is a physical substance so it doesn't make any sense to say it that way. Don't you agree?

 

[Katzpur]

yes. I don't know why you need to roll your eyes. We believe that everything is a physical substance so it doesn't make any sense to say it that way. Don't you agree?

Well, we believe that all spirit is matter, but in the context of the topic we were addressing (i.e. how our Father in Heaven and our Mother in Heaven create our spirits), the point I wanted to make is that there would be no need for the sex act, pregnancy or childbirth. I used the phrase "without physical substance (i.e. flesh and bones)" to make the point I wanted to get across to Paul.

 

[Comprehend]

Well, we believe that all spirit is matter, but in the context of the topic we were addressing (i.e. how our Father in Heaven and our Mother in Heaven create our spirits), the point I wanted to make is that there would be no need for the sex act, pregnancy or childbirth. I used the phrase "without physical substance (i.e. flesh and bones)" to make the point I wanted to get across to Paul.

ok. I won't ask the question that it makes me want to ask.

 

[Katzpur]

ok. I won't ask the next question that makes me want to ask.

What? You want me to beg?

 

[FFH]

Is FFH saying God the Father got married/sealed in a temple? And doing this is essential to get into the kingdom where they are?

Like Katz said, we don't know for sure, but Joseph Smith has stated that "God was once a mortal man" and I wholeheartedly believe this, without a doubt. It would stand to reason that he received, at some point, all the necessary saving ordinanves required to enter into the highest heavenly kingdom, marriage/sealing to a spouse being one of these saving ordinances he/God requires of us.

I highly doubt our Heavenly Father is in the business of giving commandments unless he has obeyed/fulfilled them himself.

And by created our Spirits he means begat sexually within their marriage doesn't he?

Again we don't know how our spirits were created, but we do know that they are made of fine material matter, undiscernable using only our natural eyes.

We also know that our Heavenly Father created our human immortal spirits to give form to our individual "intelligences", which have always existed...

 

[Comprehend]

What? You want me to beg?

No, I'm not mean. I didn't want to continue leading this thread out into the sticks.

BTW- I am sure you didn't care what my question was.

 

[Comprehend]

We also know that our Heavenly Father created our human immortal spirits to give form to our individual "intelligences", which have always existed...

ok, now I have to ask you a question. Why do you think we were given spirits "to give form to our individual 'intelligences'' ?

(in other words, why couldn't intelligences have form?)

 

[Katzpur]

Paul,

1. There is doctrine.
2. There are commentaries on and interpretation of doctrine by our General Authorities.
3. There is embellishment of doctrine by members of the Church.

Just make sure you know which one of these is which.

Katz

 

[Katzpur]

BTW- I am sure you didn't care what my question was.

Sure I did. But I'm not going to beg! :149:

 

[Comprehend]

Paul,

1. There is doctrine.
2. There are commentaries on and interpretation of doctrine by our General Authorities.
3. There is embellishment of doctrine by members of the Church.

Just make sure you know which one of these is which.

Katz

Hey, I wasn't saying that they do or don't have form, I have no idea, I was just wondering how FFH knew if they did and how he knew why we were given spirit bodies.

 

[Katzpur]

ok, now I have to ask you a question. Why do you think we were given spirits "to give form to our individual 'intelligences'' ?

(in other words, why couldn't intelligences have form?)

I've always been of the understanding that the word "intelligence" (as used in the scriptures) means "the light of truth." How could the light of truth have a form?

 

[Comprehend]

Sure I did. But I'm not going to beg! :149:

Ok. I was going to ask how you knew there was no need for a sex act just because the spirit body is made out of finer matter?

(that is definitely not to argue that it is necessary, just wondering how you were able to conclude that from the evidence you provided.)

 

[FFH]

ok, now I have to ask you a question. Why do you think we were given spirits "to give form to our individual 'intelligences'' ?

(in other words, why couldn't intelligences have form?)

We have always existed, but with no physical form...

That's the way I have always understood it. Will have to look that one up and see if I can't find a reference for that teaching.

Our Heavenly Father formed our spirits, not by procreating, at least that's my belief, but by forming them out of fine matter, just as Adam and Eve were formed out of the dust of the earth, so were our spirits formed, but out of matter more refined...

It's possible that Adam and Eve had physical bodies made of the same refined matter as their spirits, being immortal, until they fell, at which time they then became mortal, being subject to death and sin, having a body consisting of less refined or more dense matter....