A Discussion of the Thread: Porkchop & FFH

[Katzpur]

We have always existed, but with no physical form...

That's the way I have always understood it. Will have to look that one up and see if I can't find a reference for that teaching.

Our Heavenly Father formed our spirits, not by procreating, at least that's my belief, but by forming them out of fine matter, just as Adam and Eve were formed out of the dust of the earth, so were our spirits formed, but out of matter more refined...

It's possible that Adam and Eve had physical bodies made of the same refined matter as their spirits, being immortal, until they fell, at which time they then became mortal, being subject to death and sin, having a body consisting of less refined or more dense matter....

And for once, it appears as if FFH and I agree!

 

[FFH]

And for once, it appears as if FFH and I agree!

Well...we were both raised LDS, in the Salt Lake, so we should have somewhat the same basic understanding of LDS teachings and doctrines...

The truth gets further convoluted as you travel further from Zion (Salt Lake)...

Just kidding...

 

[Comprehend]

I've always been of the understanding that the word "intelligence" (as used in the scriptures) means "the light of truth." How could the light of truth have a form?

I am not sure which scripture you are talking about.... *glances at signature* oh...

It isn't "light of truth" but light AND truth, I don't know if that makes a big difference but words mean things and I think it drives you nuts when I do that . Anyway, you would agree that an intelligence is matter yes? (if an intelligence is light, see the particle properties of light, also see E=MC2). Why couldn't matter have a form?

I am not arguing either way, I am just saying that I don't see how one can be sure about it. There is almost nothing written on Intelligences, what points anyone to them having a form or not? (if you ask plato by the way, intelligences would be the form for us, not that Plato is an LDS scholar or anything).

 

[Katzpur]

It isn't "light of truth" but light AND truth?"

I thought that for a long time. Then I read somewhere that it means "the light OF truth." But now I can't find where I read that, so you could be right.

 

[Comprehend]

I thought that for a long time. Then I read somewhere that it means "the light OF truth." But now I can't find where I read that, so you could be right.

Now there is a scary thought, Katzpur actually thinking I could be right about something. First you agree with FFH and now you leave open the possibility that I could be right too? Are you taking all of your medication?


BTW - I figured you were referring to D&C 93 which happens to have been my signature for a while. That is where I got "light and truth" from.

 

[Comprehend]

Well...we were both raised LDS, in the Salt Lake,

You guys were both raised in boats or did you tread water for 18 years?

 

[FFH]

You guys were both raised in boats or did you tread water for 18 years?

Well, we may have been sheltered from the world, growing up in Salt Lake, but I think since coming to the forum that shelter has all but been demolished.

 

[FFH]

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
Man was also in the beginning with God.
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

The King Follett Sermon
Joseph Smith
The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end.
Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 1971

The King Follett Sermon is on the LDS.org website so I would think it would be considered doctrine...

 

[Bishka]

Well, we may have been sheltered from the world, growing up in Salt Lake, but I think since coming to the forum that shelter has all but been demolished.

I think he was being literal...Like being born in the GREAT Salt Lake.

 

[FFH]

I think he was being literal...Like being born in the GREAT Salt Lake.

Ah, I see I miss typed it. :biglaugh:

 

[FFH]

You guys were both raised in boats or did you tread water for 18 years?

Well we used to be able to just float, but the salt levels are too low now..

 

[Katzpur]

I thought that for a long time. Then I read somewhere that it means "the light OF truth." But now I can't find where I read that, so you could be right.

Duh. I didn't think to look in the scriptures. As FFH pointed out, it's in the D&C 93:29. "Intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made..."


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/9,28-29,36-37,39-40,42#9

 

[Comprehend]

Duh. I didn't think to look in the scriptures. As FFH pointed out, it's in the D&C 93:29. "Intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made..."

If you guys just want to swap scriptures.... ok:



D&C 93:36-37,39-40,42
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
40 But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.
42 You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments; and that wicked one hath power, as yet, over you, and this is the cause of your affliction.




PS. did you notice the first word in the scripture you all quoted? (MAN, wouldn't that connotate a form?)

EDIT: Anyway, I don't see how it matters, I asked why you thought an intelligence doesn't have a form. If an intelligence is as you guys say, "light of truth" then I would also have to ask how you can exist as a principle? The light of truth isn't a thing, it is an idea. How does one exist as an idea?

 

[Comprehend]

The King Follett Sermon

Joseph Smith
The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end.
Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 1971

The King Follett Sermon is on the LDS.org website so I would think it would be considered doctrine...

what is this supposed to be showing me? We all agree that intelligence has always existed and you can show that with just scripture, no need for this.

 

[Katzpur]

The King Follett Sermon is on the LDS.org website so I would think it would be considered doctrine...

Uh... I don't think so, FFH. The Standard Works are the only official sources of doctrine. That's not to say that what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse is not true, but something can be true and still not be doctrinally binding.

 

[Katzpur]

PS. did you notice the first word in the scripture you all quoted? (MAN, wouldn't that connotate a form?)

Huh? :sorry1: You lost me.

EDIT: Anyway, I don't see how it matters, I asked why you thought an intelligence doesn't have a form. If an intelligence is as you guys say, "light of truth" then I would also have to ask how you can exist as a principle? The light of truth isn't a thing, it is an idea. How does one exist as an idea?[/quote]I don't know. I don't see it as either a thing, a principle or an idea. I see it as a divine attribute, like love.

 

[Comprehend]

Huh? :sorry1: You lost me.

sorry, D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

It says "'man' was also in the beginning with God." Using the word "man" doesn't give the impression that we were without form.

I don't know. I don't see it as either a thing, a principle or an idea. I see it as a divine attribute, like love.

So how did you exist as a divine attribute? :areyoucra

 

[Katzpur]

So how did you exist as a divine attribute? :areyoucra

I don't know. There are a lot of things I don't know.

 

[FFH]

what is this supposed to be showing me? We all agree that intelligence has always existed and you can show that with just scripture, no need for this.

Hey dorito carakus, I was just posting that as a note of interest, which pertained to what we were talking about...

Church Conference April 7, 1844
(King Follett Sermon)
The immortal Intelligence

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.

~ Joseph Smith ~

 

[FFH]

Here's something else that was brought up ealier in another thread, which is also found in the April 7, 1844 Conference (King Follett sermon).

A question may be asked—“Will mothers have their children in eternity?” Yes! Yes! Mothers, you shall have your children; for they shall have eternal life, for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaiting them for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow [in the grave]; it will still be the child, in the same precise form [when it rises] as it appeared before it died out of its mother’s arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God.

~ Joseph Smith ~