a curiously hypothetical question

[JayHawes]

you seem to have all of a sudden given up trying to prove any of your points. you've resorted to simply saying 'oh well' and claiming rebuttals to be useless. your ability to defend your position appears to be minimal beyond the surface.

that was your parallel. when presented with an opposing view point you simply said

you didnt give any grounds for why you thought it was 'irrelevant'. you can't oppose something without having a reason....well....i suppose you can (as you appear to be doing) but your brain would turn into mush in due time.

i never suggested they were cast into hell. depriving innocent families of the life of thier first born is enough. perhaps they did go to heaven. but if my daughter was killed by god so that he could prove a point to the leader of my country i would probably burn down the first church i saw out of sheer blind rage towards this 'god of love'. and thus furthering my resolve (again) to take my place in hell.

President Clinton was a good President, atleast i think. He focused alot on domestic polocies, and almost ignored foriegn policy. THe economy was booming, the government was not spending money it didn't have, he help millions, and helped improve lives. But when he slept with Monica Luinsky (however you spell her name) that is all some people remember him for. So then now when some people say he is a bad President, what do they bring up? Monica Luinsky.


My point is thus. God allowing those many children to die is not your real motive behind denying him. You are only using that to support the real reason why you deny him. Prooving those supporting facts, wrong or right may or may not change you, instead when or if you reveal your true reasons, we can discuss more deeply.

You seem though to focus on things God did that you see as bad, evil and wrong. You use these to further your belief. However, what about the good? What about the billions who have recieved food becuase of Christians who do so becuase of God, what about the amazing Hositals in the Western Hemisphere, the first of which were started by God-loving Christians, what about the God who gave his only begotten son, to die for you and me? What about the God who spared the children of Israel and allowed them to cross the Sea? What about the God who gave many people including me peace beyond understanding? What about the good things he's done? What about all those he's helped, taken care of?

It seems whatever pain someone or something has caused you, has allwed you to turn a very blind eye to the good the eminates from him.

 

[Aasimar]

Do i believe that the bible is 100% accuate. If you mean the Hisotry- yes, if you mean the prophecy- yes, and if you mean the accounts of Jesus- yes.

No, I mean the BIBLE. The book on every Christian families coffee table. I hate this hiding behind ambiguity crap. So let's address issues 1 by 1. Step one, what bible are you talking about, please provide a link or a location so that it can be properly analyzed. KJV, NIV, The youth bible for beginners, The Jesus Loves You bible, which one. You know what, I said I won't do this, so I won't. I'll open another thread later I need to get some sleep and then go to work, so it will probably be tomorrow. Or JayHawes you may start a thread about biblical innerency if you like. But I really don't want to sully the OP's intent here. See you in 8-20 hours

And if this thread seems angry, it kind of is, but it's not really directed at you. It's more anger at biblical literalism in general because I just finished doing some research on the Ohio "Intelligent Design" Dilemma and I was frustrated at how low people will go to push an agenda, so far as to blatantly and intentionally lie with no purpose other than to further the agenda. So I apologize for the harsh tone. It's also past my nappy nap time

 

[daemonikus]

Some may refuse to accpet that the bible is 100% accurate maybe:
1) Becuase you were not raised Christian
2) Becuase you may not like Authority
3) Becuase you dont like Christians
4) Because a "Christian" you knew did something bad
5) Becasue you dont understand one verse
6)There is so much evil in the World
7) They made it up
8) I like living in sin (drugs, sex, so on)

the number of times i have heard this argument from nearly every christian is staggering. why is it so hard to accept that there are people who simply do not believe in god!?

You seem though to focus on things God did that you see as bad, evil and wrong. You use these to further your belief. However, what about the good? What about the billions who have recieved food becuase of Christians who do so becuase of God, what about the amazing Hositals in the Western Hemisphere, the first of which were started by God-loving Christians

far too much of the time it is laced with a deeper underhanded attempt at trying to attain converts through acts of 'good will'. schools are often opened with obligatory bible classes and/or bibles are handed out in the village.

what about the God who gave his only begotten son, to die for you and me?

well since i dont believe jesus was god or that god even exists i really couldnt care less if jesus 'died for my sins'. that was his decision and i'm not about to feel guilty for rejecting his 'sacrifice'.

What about the God who spared the children of Israel and allowed them to cross the Sea?

there is little to no evidence that that even happened (let alone that a man named moses existed either)

What about the God who gave many people including me peace beyond understanding?

if your peace and understanding comes from faith thats your deal. i get peace and understanding from legitimate learning and using my mind.

What about the good things he's done? What about all those he's helped, taken care of?

since god cant be proven to be the source of those 'good deeds' thats really not even a relevant argument. if he does exist (and for the purpose of attempting to keep this thread on track) his 'good deeds' are candy coated so the bad deeds dont seem so bad or are left on the back burner.

It seems whatever pain someone or something has caused you, has allwed you to turn a very blind eye to the good the eminates from him.

you're right. i have had many bad experiences with churches and christianity. i was raised in a pentecostal home. i was in bible college for a year and a half (one of the worst mistakes of my life). my extended family (approximately 50 of them, my mom has seven siblings) who are all evangelical christians and one of whom is a pastor has rejected me and refuses to invite me to christmas dinner. however, while they may have gotten the ball rolling on my distaste for christianity and religion in general, it was my own research and experiences (or lack thereof) with god and the bible and faith that has caused me to open my mind to this point. and as i have stated many times in this post already. if the bible and god are true/real it will not change my views. i would rather burn in hell than serve in heaven.

 

[joeboonda]

you're right. i have had many bad experiences with churches and christianity. i was raised in a pentecostal home. i was in bible college for a year and a half (one of the worst mistakes of my life). my extended family (approximately 50 of them, my mom has seven siblings) who are all evangelical christians and one of whom is a pastor has rejected me and refuses to invite me to christmas dinner. however, while they may have gotten the ball rolling on my distaste for christianity and religion in general, it was my own research and experiences (or lack thereof) with god and the bible and faith that has caused me to open my mind to this point. and as i have stated many times in this post already. if the bible and god are true/real it will not change my views. i would rather burn in hell than serve in heaven.

Sounds like you had bad experiences with a bad religion. One thing about pentecostals, they can be extremely legalistic and judgemental. They are this way because they believe they can lose their salvation and are never really at peace with God, so they are hyper-critical of every little thing anyone does. That is not true Christianity. True Christianity is simply having trusted Christ to have paid for our sins and given us His righteousness in place of our own, we rest with assurance from doing or not doing anything to gain or keep our salvation. When we realize that salvation is all from God, with nothing we do but that we believed, we have peace and are able to serve God out of gratitude and joy, not out of fear and frustration. God loves us, all good things come from Him, He is the Father of Lights from whom is no shadow of turning, His arms are wide open and His love is endless.

 

[daemonikus]

Sounds like you had bad experiences with a bad religion. One thing about pentecostals, they can be extremely legalistic and judgemental. They are this way because they believe they can lose their salvation and are never really at peace with God, so they are hyper-critical of every little thing anyone does. That is not true Christianity. True Christianity is simply having trusted Christ to have paid for our sins and given us His righteousness in place of our own, we rest with assurance from doing or not doing anything to gain or keep our salvation. When we realize that salvation is all from God, with nothing we do but that we believed, we have peace and are able to serve God out of gratitude and joy, not out of fear and frustration. God loves us, all good things come from Him, He is the Father of Lights from whom is no shadow of turning, His arms are wide open and His love is endless.

just so no one assumes that i am simply a bitter ex christian. pentecostals, baptists, non-denominationalists, catholics, mormons, jw's, evangelicals, and other forms of christianity (and religion in gereral) all have the same underlying motives and beliefs. beliefs which after careful consideration i do not share. you are not going to convert me or make me rethink faith. i'm not an unbeliever simply because of a bad experience or several. i'm an unbeliever because i dont believe. i couldnt care less what your theological differences are with other denominations. everyones got it right and everyone else is wrong. its rather annoying. and so is constantly being told that my unbelief is because of (whatever) reason. such as the ones jayhawes posted. those arguments are tired and narrowminded. get some new material.

 

[joeboonda]

just so no one assumes that i am simply a bitter ex christian. pentecostals, baptists, non-denominationalists, catholics, mormons, jw's, evangelicals, and other forms of christianity (and religion in gereral) all have the same underlying motives and beliefs. beliefs which after careful consideration i do not share. you are not going to convert me or make me rethink faith. i'm not an unbeliever simply because of a bad experience or several. i'm an unbeliever because i dont believe. i couldnt care less what your theological differences are with other denominations. everyones got it right and everyone else is wrong. its rather annoying. and so is constantly being told that my unbelief is because of (whatever) reason. such as the ones jayhawes posted. those arguments are tired and narrowminded. get some new material.

Hi. Okay live and let live then. I don't know what underlying motives other Christians you knew may have had. The only motivation I believe in is love, trying to love people as best I can and to do that I have to tell them what I believe is the truth. Of course you don't have to believe it and I don't need to guess what your reasons are, so I won't. I hope you find peace and happiness and real truth in your life.
Peace and Love,
Mike

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One of the problems is that this is impossible, aside from the translation issues (Which bible is 100% accurate?), the blatant contradictions, if taken literaly, would prove impossible.

I agree, but not with the reason given on why its impossible to answer a hypothetical question on that.

 

[uumckk16]

The God of the Bible is Love. The people He destroyed were wicked beyond imagination. If the firstborn of Egypt were slain, they were simply slain, not cast to Hell. God is love and loved us enough to pay for our sins Himself on the cross. As there are Physical Laws, there are also Spiritual Laws, such as the penalty for sin is death. Sin breeds death, that is just a spiritual fact. So, God in His great love for us stepped up and died for us while we were yet sinners and enemies of a Holy God. He did this and offers eternal life freely, to completely, absolutely undeserving sinners such as we are, a free gift from a loving God.

Do you seriously not see a contradiction there?

And they were "simply slain"? Jeez then, I wonder what all of those Jews have been complaining about, after all, all of the people in the Holocaust were "simply slain." :areyoucra

Some may refuse to accpet that the bible is 100% accurate maybe:
1) Becuase you were not raised Christian
2) Becuase you may not like Authority
3) Becuase you dont like Christians
4) Because a "Christian" you knew did something bad
5) Becasue you dont understand one verse
6)There is so much evil in the World
7) They made it up
8) I like living in sin (drugs, sex, so on)

Um...or maybe not...None of those are the reason I don't accept the Bible as 100% accurate. The word is spelled "because," by the way.

This is remarkably off topic. I apologize.

 

[daemonikus]

And they were "simply slain"? Jeez then, I wonder what all of those Jews have been complaining about, after all, all of the people in the Holocaust were "simply slain."

hmmmm...good point

 

[joeboonda]

As bad as being slain is, my point is that it nowhere says that they were both slain AND went to Hell. Jesus talked about that when He said that the people killed when the tower (of Saloam?) fell on them were not more wicked than anyone else. Explore that if you like.

 

[mr.guy]

you didnt give any grounds for why you thought it was 'irrelevant'. you can't oppose something without having a reason....well....i suppose you can (as you appear to be doing) but your brain would turn into mush in due time.

What's "mush" is the following:

A)God's a murderer.
B)Murderers can lie.
C)Thus, god's a liar.

 

[logician]

i wrote this question from the christian perspective because it is what i am most familiar with. feel free to interpret it in to the context of other religions if you prefer.

if it were proven to you as a non-christian, beyond all measure that god and satan were really real. if the bible were true. every word of it. if the stories were literal and heaven, hell, jesus, redemption and (undeniably) the atrocities committed under the guidance of god were all true. would you immediately abandon all previous thought and follow god? would you choose a side based on your own morals? or would the fear of hell and toment override your moral mind?

If it were proven to you beyond all doubt that Xianity was a bunch of phooey, would you abandon your faith?

 

[mr.guy]

If it were proven to you beyond all doubt that Xianity was a bunch of phooey, would you abandon your faith?

Would that not be a topic for some other (aka. not this) thread?