A 7th Yugoslav republic?

[Djamila]

In 1991, Yugoslavia began a slow and painful process of disintegration. The socialist union failed following the death of Josip Broz Tito, whose ideals and political savy single-handedly held it together.

One by one the republics that had united just 50 years earlier broke apart. Slovenia and Croatia declared their independence in 1991. Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia declared their independence in 1992.

Montenegro declared its independence in 2006. That final referendum was the death-blow for Yugoslavia. Now all six republics which had signed on to create the country were independent in and of themselves.

But it didn't stop there. Kosovo, a province of Serbia (and this is very important. The fact it is a Serbian province, and not an independent republic, has completely different implications) is currently undergoing negociations to determine its final status.

It has been under the administration of the United Nations since 1999, when the international community took over the province's leadership following a war to stop the violence in Kosovo.

The United Nations stopped the violence against Kosovo's Albanian civilians, but when these hundreds of thousands of refugees poured back into the province after being expelled, the UN did not protect Kosovo's Serbs from them. This has bred an even deeper resentment for the international community among Kosovo's Serbs. This is also important to know.

So, where does it go from here? Do you believe Kosovo should be independent? Regardless, do you believe it will be?

I think Kosovo will be independent. The population there is more than 90 per cent Albanian, and has been for decades. There is no way they will placate 90 per cent of the population to honor the wishes of some 5 per cent. If Kosovo isn't given independence, they'll take it - it's really that simple.

Whether or not they should be independent is a separate matter to me. I won't get into the historical discussions because they go in circles. You can say Kosovo is the heart of Serbia, and in many ways it is - but the real heart is Raska (Sandzak, a region now populated by Serbian Muslims). You can say Kosovo belongs to the Albanians, because they're the descendants of the Illyrians, the original inhabitants - but if you support that arguement, they should effectively be given most of the Balkans - and it will never end.

So history, for me, cannot play a role because history does not offer any acceptable solution.

So I look instead at what's best for the weakest among Kosovo's population. If you look out for the weakest and most vulnerable, the majority will take care of themselves.

Kosovo's Serbs want the province to remain a part of Serbia, but this is not welcomed by Albanians for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the war and all those feelings - but there are practical reasons as well. Kosovo, under Serbian leadership, will continue to stagnate as it has for the last 50 years. It's almost like an African-American ghetto in America, the government just doesn't do anything in terms of economic development, and so on.

If Kosovo is independent, the same will be true of what are today relatively better-off Serbian areas. They will stagenate and fall into disrepair and misery.

So what do you do? I think self-government is the least offensive solution. Albanians and Serbians in Kosovo should be able to govern themselves in the districts where they form a majority. I don't mean farce government, like the Palestinian territories, I mean real government - with their own currency, their own flag, their own schools, their own infrastructure, and so on.

Then, whether Kosovo is independent or not on paper matters little. Any final decision might even be postponed, who knows.

So what do you all think?

 

[Sunstone]

If 90% of a population wants independence, what right does anyone have to prevent them? It is not like the Serbians signed over their rights to independence, did they? What I mean is, the States in the United States signed over their rights to independence upon becoming part of the United States. That was settled by the American Civil War. But the Serbians have at no time signed over their rights to independence, or have they? If they haven't, and they want independence, the rest of Europe and the world should support them in gaining independence.

 

[Djamila]

It's actually the Albanians who want independence.

Basically the situation is like this, Sunstone.

Imagine southern California - San Diego as far north as San Francisco, San Jose. This area, centuries ago, belonged to the Spanish people, today's Mexicans. Kosovo, centuries ago, belonged to the Illyrian people, today's Albanians.

But California became a part of the United States very early in American history. And it's an important part - it has all sorts of important cultural and historial significance for Americans. Kosovo became part of Serbia very early in Serbia's history and in many ways is the seat of the Serbian Orthodox faith.

In California, over the last several decades, Spanish people have become the largest minority in the state. Over the last century, the Albanian population in Kosovo grew to become the majority.

Now imagine the Spanish in California wanted independence, or possibly even to join Mexico. What would the reaction of the average, white American in California be? That's the reaction of the Serbian people.

 

[Sunstone]

It's actually the Albanians who want independence.

Basically the situation is like this, Sunstone.

Imagine southern California - San Diego as far north as San Francisco, San Jose. This area, centuries ago, belonged to the Spanish people, today's Mexicans. Kosovo, centuries ago, belonged to the Illyrian people, today's Albanians.

But California became a part of the United States very early in American history. And it's an important part - it has all sorts of important cultural and historial significance for Americans. Kosovo became part of Serbia very early in Serbia's history and in many ways is the seat of the Serbian Orthodox faith.

In California, over the last several decades, Spanish people have become the largest minority in the state. Over the last century, the Albanian population in Kosovo grew to become the majority.

Now imagine the Spanish in California wanted independence, or possibly even to join Mexico. What would the reaction of the average, white American in California be? That's the reaction of the Serbian people.

Thank you for explaining that. From what you've said, I do not get the impression that union with Serbia has been of much benefit to the majority of Kosovians. Is that correct?

 

[Djamila]

It hasn't really, no. I can say the average Kosovar Albanian was much better off in Yugoslavia than Albanians living under the communist regime in Albania were.

However, I can say equally strongly that the average Kosovar Albanian had fewer than half the opportunities, social programs, and so on, awarded to every other resident from every other ethnic and religious group in Yugoslavia, except Roma (Gypsies).

 

[Djamila]

Yugoslavia had very visible classes of people.

The wealthiest, by far, were the Slovenians. You need only look at their cities. This is Ljubljana, Slovenia (Yugoslavia) - where Donald Trump's wife is from.

Next were the Croatians, again you can tell their cities are slightly poorer than the Slovenians but still quite wealthy. This is Dubrovnik, Croatia (Yugoslavia):

The next wealthiest were the Serbians. A lot more communist architecture, not as much nice things. This is Belgrade, Serbia (Yugoslavia):

The next were the Bosnians. This is Sarajevo, Bosnia (Yugoslavia):

 

[Djamila]

Then you had the Macedonians. This is Skopje, Macedonia (Yugoslavia):

Then you had the Kosovar's, this is Prishtina, Kosovo (Serbia, Yugoslavia):

 

[Sunstone]

It doesn't seem like the Serbs have given the Kosovars much reason to stick with them. IF the Kosovars want independence, the Serbs have only themselves to blame. Or am I misguided here?

 

[Djamila]

Yes and no. Kosovar Albanians began this current fight for independence during WWII. When WWII had finished, they were absolutely horrified that the governments of Europe awarded them to Yugoslavia. It was a completely unprecedented move, especially considering they'd spent weeks from the end of the fighting to the announcement of this decision celebrating their independence.

From the first days of Yugoslavia, Kosovo has always been dominated by a desire for independence. This, naturally, caused the Yugoslav fist to come down hard. Now this can't be blamed entirely on Serbia. The leader of Yugoslavia, Josip Broz Tito, was in fact Croatian and just about everyone in Yugoslavia supported measures to keep Kosovo in line.

However, once Tito died and Serbia assumed full assume of Kosovo (which had always been autonomous in Yugoslavia, with its own government, elections, and so on), everything escalated. Hundreds of Albanian students were beaten, several to death, at independence rallies in the early 1990s. Then the ethnic cleansing campaign was launched, that much you surely know already. All this time attacks on Serbs were taking place as well, though they were not organized like the full force of the Serbian army that Kosovar Albanians were facing.

Now it's reached a point where there's no going back, really.

 

[Djamila]

Just to give you an idea of how tense the situation is.

In 2004, two Albanian boys in Kosovo drowned in a rural river.

One radio station said, incorrectly it of course turned out, that a group of Serbian men had chased them into the river.

Within a week, more than 30 Orthodox Churches in Kosovo had been burned to the ground. More than 7,000 Serbian civilians had been driven from their homes. 27 Serbs were killed. The city of Prizren, in the south, was completely liquidated of its Serb population, who comprised 50% of the total just 150 years ago.

That's how tense it is. ONE false news story.

 

[James the Persian]

Unsurprisingly I am not in favour of independance for Kosovo but I do, unfortunately, think it is inevitable. The idea that the Albanians are the ancient Illyrians, that was put forward here, is far from certain even though it is a favourite ethnic myth of the Albanians themselves. In fact, he Albanian language shows evidence of having evolved in a land locked region, which Illyria never was, and hence it seems rather unlikely that they are, in fact, Illyrians. The only other language with cognates in Albanian is Romanian and these words are all believed to be left over from the pre-Roman Dacian language which would make the Albanians more likely to have been a Dacian/Thracian tribe which migrated southwards at some point.
The more modern history as presented in this thread is pretty much correct. From the Serbian point of view, taking Kosovo from them and giving it to the Albanians would be roughly like taking the home counties from England and giving it to, say, Pakistanis if after a century of immigration and outbreeding the English they were to become the majority in the area. Given the importance of Kosovo for Serbia and the Serbian church, they are never going to accept such an outcome.
On a more personal note, I would be worried for both our monasteries and churches and my coreligionists if Kosovo were to become independent. Since the KFOR presence there, the ethnic Albaninas have ethnically cleansed the area, driving out the vast majority of non-Albanians (Roma, Jews and Slav muslims also, not just Serbs) and destroyed and desecrated hundreds of religious sites while the UN looked on and did nothing. Until Kosovar albanians can learn to live like a civilised state and protect the minorities in Kosovo, including their religious heritage, any state that is formed will be a pariah state and, frankly, likely to be destabilising to a region that is already less than stable.

James

 

[Djamila]

Unsurprisingly I am not in favour of independance for Kosovo but I do, unfortunately, think it is inevitable. The idea that the Albanians are the ancient Illyrians, that was put forward here, is far from certain even though it is a favourite ethnic myth of the Albanians themselves. In fact, he Albanian language shows evidence of having evolved in a land locked region, which Illyria never was, and hence it seems rather unlikely that they are, in fact, Illyrians. The only other language with cognates in Albanian is Romanian and these words are all believed to be left over from the pre-Roman Dacian language which would make the Albanians more likely to have been a Dacian/Thracian tribe which migrated southwards at some point.
The more modern history as presented in this thread is pretty much correct. From the Serbian point of view, taking Kosovo from them and giving it to the Albanians would be roughly like taking the home counties from England and giving it to, say, Pakistanis if after a century of immigration and outbreeding the English they were to become the majority in the area. Given the importance of Kosovo for Serbia and the Serbian church, they are never going to accept such an outcome.
On a more personal note, I would be worried for both our monasteries and churches and my coreligionists if Kosovo were to become independent. Since the KFOR presence there, the ethnic Albaninas have ethnically cleansed the area, driving out the vast majority of non-Albanians (Roma, Jews and Slav muslims also, not just Serbs) and destroyed and desecrated hundreds of religious sites while the UN looked on and did nothing. Until Kosovar albanians can learn to live like a civilised state and protect the minorities in Kosovo, including their religious heritage, any state that is formed will be a pariah state and, frankly, likely to be destabilising to a region that is already less than stable.

James

Thank you for your reply, James! It's very nice to hear from an Orthodox Christian who is familiar with the region, and it's even nicer to be able to freely discuss with one without fighting!

I'm not sure if I believe the Albanians are Illyrian or not, really. In school we learned they were not, which always made me suspicious because they're so adamant that they are. It's not like, for example, Macedonia. In Macedonia you have many people who believe Alexander the Great was Slavic, and not a Macedon or a Greek. But you also have a lot of people who simply believe Slavs settled there in the 6th century, most probably Bulgars, and absorbed a little of the local culture, and brought with them much of their own. That's what I believe, it seems to be the most likely scenario. Among Albanians, as far as I can tell, you don't really have this. Saying Albanians are Illyrian is like saying the world is round. There's no controversy, no concern, and so on. So who knows.

About the Albanian ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, I must say first that it doesn't really compare to the Serbian campaign, which drove out hundreds of thousands of people and resulted in the deaths of at least 4,000 (Serbian number, Albanian estimates are freakishly high of course). That said, you can't deny what's happened in Kosovo since then. Civilians who had nothing to do with the Serbian crackdown there have suffered greatly.

The destruction of churches and monasteries following that false news report is a deep, spiritual blow but their actual physical suffering - harassment, murders, and so on - is equally strong. And you're right about it affecting Slavic Muslims also. It seems to be about ethnicity more than religion. For example, in Prizren it was an Albanian Catholic Priest who led the rioters to the monastery on the hill for its destruction. In Prizren, it was Slavic Muslims - who even referred to themselves as Bosniaks - who were forced to flee with the Serb civilians.

It just makes the whole situation so much more complicated.

What do you think would've happened had the United Nations not failed miserably to predict and halt the Albanian retribution attacks once the crackdown was stopped?

 

[James the Persian]

Thank you for your reply, James! It's very nice to hear from an Orthodox Christian who is familiar with the region, and it's even nicer to be able to freely discuss with one without fighting!

Thank you. I have no desire to fight with anyone and would rather see the whole Balkan region at peace. I absolutely deplore what was done by the Serbs in the name of my religion (and I'm sure that you realise that it was really a non-Christian nationalistic motivation dressed up in religious clothes rather than anything to do with our faith). I won't pretend, however, that the Serbs are the monsters they were portrayed as in the west. They, too, were victims, both in Kosovo and elsewhere and the Serbian church was very vocal in its opposition to the actions of Milosevic and his cronies. This, however, did not prevent the demonisation of an entire people and the subsequent 'Happy Easter' bombs.

I'm not sure if I believe the Albanians are Illyrian or not, really. In school we learned they were not, which always made me suspicious because they're so adamant that they are. It's not like, for example, Macedonia. In Macedonia you have many people who believe Alexander the Great was Slavic, and not a Macedon or a Greek. But you also have a lot of people who simply believe Slavs settled there in the 6th century, most probably Bulgars, and absorbed a little of the local culture, and brought with them much of their own. That's what I believe, it seems to be the most likely scenario. Among Albanians, as far as I can tell, you don't really have this. Saying Albanians are Illyrian is like saying the world is round. There's no controversy, no concern, and so on. So who knows.

I'd say that I'm pretty convinced that the Albanians are predominantly non-Romanised Dacians that moved into Illyria rather than Illyrians themselves. The linguistic evidence of their relationship to the Romanians and their lack of seafaring vocabulary seems sufficient evidence of this. Your bringing up Macedonia is quite apt. People in the Balkans always seem to want to have been there first. In Romania you have Hungarian revisionists who claim they found Transylvania unpopulated (despite the Magyars being the last group to come to Europe), in Macedonia you have Slavs who wish to be the heirs of Alexander the Great despite the Slavs not being in Europe till much later and in Albania you have the wish to be Illyrian. It's all part of the same phenomenon and indicative of the ethnic tensions in the region. In actual fact, when it comes to Alexander he probably wasn't Greek either, but a Hellenised Thracian. He, after all, was considered a barbarian by the Greeks and his father had Aristotle tutor him to Hellenise him further. It seems that neither the Slavs nor the Greeks ought really to claim him as their own.

About the Albanian ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, I must say first that it doesn't really compare to the Serbian campaign, which drove out hundreds of thousands of people and resulted in the deaths of at least 4,000 (Serbian number, Albanian estimates are freakishly high of course). That said, you can't deny what's happened in Kosovo since then. Civilians who had nothing to do with the Serbian crackdown there have suffered greatly.

I don't deny that there was ethnic cleansing under Milosevic, but I do doubt it was any worse than what has been perpetrated since. In any case, even in the Milosevic era there was ethnic cleansing both of and by Albanians. Neither side is without blood on their hands. What makes the current ethnic cleansing stand out in my mind, however, is that it has been happening under the noses of KFOR without anything being done. This shows the hypocrisy of NATO. They would bomb civillians in Serbia (even on Pascha!!!) to stop the Albanians being ethnically cleansed by Serbs but when Serbs (and others) are the victims, they do nothing at all.

The destruction of churches and monasteries following that false news report is a deep, spiritual blow but their actual physical suffering - harassment, murders, and so on - is equally strong. And you're right about it affecting Slavic Muslims also. It seems to be about ethnicity more than religion. For example, in Prizren it was an Albanian Catholic Priest who led the rioters to the monastery on the hill for its destruction. In Prizren, it was Slavic Muslims - who even referred to themselves as Bosniaks - who were forced to flee with the Serb civilians.

I agree totally. All the ethnic minorities in Kosovo are suffering and it is not just a matter of desecrated churches - there have been murders, disappearances and harrassments of all kinds.

It just makes the whole situation so much more complicated.

What do you think would've happened had the United Nations not failed miserably to predict and halt the Albanian retribution attacks once the crackdown was stopped?

I don't know. I do know that if NATO were really there as peacekeepers rather than being the partisans of the KLA then things could have panned out very differently. Albanians, whilst still the majority, would not be the overwhelming majority they are now and Jews, Slav muslims, Roma and Serbian Orthodox would still be in the province in much greater numbers rather than being reduced to refugee status in Serbia proper.

James

 

[Djamila]

Okay, I understand your views now. I think we agree on most things.

To respond to your statement - I hope you know this was a national rather than a religious movement. I know Orthodox Christianity doesn't teach the things they did to us. I know there are many great Orthodox Christian leaders, like the Priest in Sarajevo who turned his church into a maternity hospital during the war because they wouldn't stop shelling and sniping the real one.

Like Bosko Brkic's mother. Bosko Brkic and Admira Ismic are Sarajevo's 'Romeo and Juliet'. He was Serb, she was Bosniak (Muslim). They were shot by snipers trying to flee Sarajevo. Their bodies remained on the bridge forever until the Serbs sent Muslim POWs to retrieve them at night. Their bodies were taken to a Serbian military base and burried, but the priest refused to allow Admira a coffin or to say a prayer for her. So Bosko's mother, in full view of everyone, laid a sweater she had be knitting over Admira's body before they put the soil on, and screamed an Orthodox prayer - literally screamed, I've seen the video. I mean... how can you not look at someone like that and feel God?

As for the Church as a whole, in my opinion they supported what happened. They blessed the soldiers at the Srebrenica massacre, they rang the churchbells when the mosques and Catholic churches came down in Visegrad, in Banja Luka, and other places. I think the... administration of the church held the same political views as the aggressors.

But I don't believe it in any way reflects the character of Orthodox Christianity. I can't say that strongly enough. They bad people could've been Voodoo Priests for all I care, I see nothing of their religion in them.

 

[James the Persian]

As for the Church as a whole, in my opinion they supported what happened. They blessed the soldiers at the Srebrenica massacre, they rang the churchbells when the mosques and Catholic churches came down in Visegrad, in Banja Luka, and other places. I think the... administration of the church held the same political views as the aggressors.

On this, I'm glad to say, you are wrong. The Church as a whole did not support the attrocities at all. Patriarch Pavle was vocal in his opposition and I can't remember a single heirarch supporting any such action. Certain priests may have supported these actions (some, particularly in Republica Srpska, certainly did) but they should have been defrocked in my opinion.

As for blessing soldiers, I hope you realise that this is a normal thing for Orthodox to do. It doesn't necessarily mean that the priests knew what they were later going to do (though they may have done, in which case they should certainly not have blessed the soldiers). As far as I am aware there weren't actually any priests present in Srebrenica at the time of the massacre and therefore I cannot judge whether anyone in the Church knowingly supported those who perpetrated it. I certainly hope and pray that they did not.

But I don't believe it in any way reflects the character of Orthodox Christianity. I can't say that strongly enough. They bad people could've been Voodoo Priests for all I care, I see nothing of their religion in them.

I'm glad. We, like every religion, have our fair share of wolves in sheeps clothing. These people are not Christian whatever they might call themselves just as I'd imagine you would argue that Muslim suicide bombers are not representative of Islam. Priests are just as likely to be bad as laymen and even the saints are not without flaws. At least our Church does not glorify (canonise the RCs would say) those responsible for such attrocities which is not necessarily the case for all the other religions in the region (the situation with the Ustashe in WWII springs to mind).

All sides in the Balkans have blood on their hands, all have committed attrocites both in the recent wars and during previous history. The only way that the cycle will be broken, in my opinion, is to recognise this, repent and ask forgiveness of one another. Mostly, this seems to be happening at long last, though recent events in Croatia with regards to the 'hero' (read war criminal) Ante Gotovina leads me to worry that lessons may not really have been learnt after all. I pray that my wories are unfounded.

James