“The Son is equal to his Father”

[Balthazzar]

Maybe equal in substance, having all the aspects of God, yet still falling short of God's glory. Jesus also stated that none is good but God, so you know ... equality yet not quite an equal to.

 

[Brian2]

You are deflecting from the question at hand ...unable to process information before you.

This is not about who you think was the real identity of the God that met Abraham was -- this is about who Abraham thought the God visiting him was. Abraham does not have the benefit of a book with 5th century scribes and redactors substituting the name YHWH for the word God at various places in the text.

The God has introduced himself as the "Most High God" EL Elyon - EL Shaddai -- both terms which are used to describe the Chief God on Earth. (other epithets include EL Elyon "Supreme God" "The Father" , "Creator" , God of the Patriarchs, God who lives high in the mountains in a Tent)

Now to Abraham .. the name of the Chief God on Earth is well known .. not just to Abe but everyone .. and Abe .. as you suggest.. believes in many Gods .. but he chooses to worship only the High God. (EL, Ellil, Enlil) Enlil is the high God of the Pantheon in UR ..where Abe was born .. and first is called by the high God.. This is same God is called EL by the Canaanites -- High God of the Canaanite Pantheon.

Abraham does not know the name YHWH .. Abraham believes the Name of the Most High God is EL ..

Genesis 14:
17 After Abram[aq] returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet Abram[ar] in the Valley of Shaveh (known as the King’s Valley).[as] 18 Melchizedek king of Salem[at] brought out bread and wine. (Now he was the priest of EL Oliun )[au] 19 He blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by[av] EL Oliun ,
Creator[aw] of heaven and earth.[ax]
20 Worthy of praise is[ay] EL Oliun
who delivered[az] your enemies into your hand.”
Abram gave Melchizedek[ba] a tenth of everything.

EL Oliun - "EL Supreme" www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen14.pdf

EL Oliun different epithet than EL-Shaddai .. same most high Canaanite God EL but this time referred to as EL Supreme -- God Supreme - or the Supreme one.

Now Pay attention - This God being worshiped .. is the High God of a Canaanite Priest King .. High priest of the Order of Melchi-Zedek

Whats in a Name Brian ? --- Zedek -- Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. sitting at the right hand of the Supreme God EL as fitting for the Divine Council .. over Which El Elyon Presides .. EL most High.

who is the God of the Priestly order of Melchi-Zedek friend ? and Why is this Melchi-Zedek fellow named after the Patron God of Jerusalem - city of Peace -- Patron God Justice/Righteousness.

So Abraham saw YHWH as the Supreme God of the Canaanites. YHWH is the supreme God over all other gods. That does not mean that the other gods are real gods. There is only one true and real God who created all things, including all living beings, whether they are called gods or not.
Melchizedek, who was probably named by his parents, was high priest of the Supreme God even if the rest of the pantheon of gods was not real.

 

[Brian2]

Not so my young apprentice We do not learn later in the OT that these other Gods are not really Gods .. Quite the reverse is true for those with eyes not blinded to the truth.

While the decepticons tried to wipe away the polytheistic parts of the story... .. enough remains to find the path to the Truth .. Did you think the greatest of deceivers -- complete with the powers of a God --- was going to show up with horns, red cape and a tail ??

What do the fundamentalists (who have it nearly all wrong but even broken clock right twice a day) say about Sataniel's greatest Trick ? Surely you have heard -- to convince the world that he does not exist ?

but you who says there are no other Gods in the OT .. tell me what you mean by "GOD" ? a definition without which .. one has not the faintest idea what they are saying when they say "No other Gods" which YHWH never says but that is another issue. presuming that this was said somewhere .. it is obviously a falsehood as soon as one gives any reasonable - non moronic - definition for God.
For example == having the ability to - through force of will - reign fire down from the sky -- cause humans to do what you wish -- Levitate himself and other beings .. or inanimate e objects such as chairs .. You get the picture .. "God-Like Powers" some Gods having more power .. others having less.

The powers of Ha Satan are those of a God - as we see in Job -- able to reign fire down from the sky and other Godlike Powers exhibited in the story. The mere fact that The Adversary and Tester of Souls is able to traverse back and forth between heaven in of itself is a divine Power. Do you know any humans that can do this ?

This Son of El Oliun .. Son of God Supreme -- this Tester of Human souls with the powers of as God is sent to test Jesus while in the desert undergoing ritual trial for 40 days ---prior to activation of the all-spark shard recieved at baptism. 1000 years have past .. Ha Satan is now Chief God over all the Earth .. a very powerful God

Would you like examples of other Gods in the OT ? many many are there. What's in a name friend ? What great Most High God do you think the raging pagan SamuEL is named after ? ... as opposed to the Holy Eli-jah das where the rasta com from.

Tell me about the powers of Ha Satan ? give a "non moronic" definition of God .. and how you figure our Good friend Sataniel does not fit the Bill ?

The only true God is YHWH, the creator of all things.
Having powers above those of humans do not make for a true God but may mean that humans end up calling you a god.
So the confusion is thinking that all who are called gods in the Bible are true gods, when in reality they are gods only by name and should all serve the only true God, even if many of them do not do that.

 

[Sargonski]

So Abraham saw YHWH as the Supreme God of the Canaanites. YHWH is the supreme God over all other gods. That does not mean that the other gods are real gods. There is only one true and real God who created all things, including all living beings, whether they are called gods or not.
Melchizedek, who was probably named by his parents, was high priest of the Supreme God even if the rest of the pantheon of gods was not real.

Let us get one thing clear .... Abraham believed in the existence of Many Gods. As you suggest - this does not mean that all of these Gods were Real .. nor does it mean that the Supreme God EL that he believed in was real .. and just because you believe - doesn't make what you believe in real either.

What is real -- is that the Bible tells a story in which there are many Gods .. Gods against which YHWH is competing .. even losing a battle or two.

Ha Satan is a powerful God .. did you forget about him ? and Melchi-Zedek is not the name his parents gave him .. thats not how it worked in the time of ABE.. the Priest King would take the name of the Patron God of the city .. Silly

 

[Sargonski]

The only true God is YHWH, the creator of all things.
Having powers above those of humans do not make for a true God but may mean that humans end up calling you a god.
So the confusion is thinking that all who are called gods in the Bible are true gods, when in reality they are gods only by name and should all serve the only true God, even if many of them do not do that.

Now you in a circular repetition of premise fallacy mode .. repeating a premise over and over does not make any less true or false. "The only one true God is YHWH" you cry over and over .. but without any support for claim.

Now this is fine and you are welcome to believe that YHWH is the Only God .. and the creator of all things .. but this is not what the Bible teaches.
The Bible speaks of many Gods .. some higher than YHWH ... such as the Chief God EL of the Canaanites .. The Bible tells is that YHWH is one of the Sons of EL .... and whether you belief it or not .. this is what the Israelites believed .. and this was their God after all .. not Yours.

The War God of the Israelites was not believed to be the Only God friend .. at no time during the time of the Israelites .. was YHWH believed to be the only God. .. Sorry friend .. but your claims about the Biblical YHWH are simply not true.

 

[Brian2]

Let us get one thing clear .... Abraham believed in the existence of Many Gods. As you suggest - this does not mean that all of these Gods were Real .. nor does it mean that the Supreme God EL that he believed in was real .. and just because you believe - doesn't make what you believe in real either.

What is real -- is that the Bible tells a story in which there are many Gods .. Gods against which YHWH is competing .. even losing a battle or two.

Ha Satan is a powerful God .. did you forget about him ? and Melchi-Zedek is not the name his parents gave him .. thats not how it worked in the time of ABE.. the Priest King would take the name of the Patron God of the city .. Silly

There is the one true God EL the Highest God, who is also YHWH, and there are others whose power is such that they are called gods by humans, but whose power is nothing compared to YHWH.
Satan is one of these gods.
The battle now is to win the hearts of humans to YHWH. This is something that is done without forcing people to believe in, follow and love YHWH.

 

[Brian2]

Now you in a circular repetition of premise fallacy mode .. repeating a premise over and over does not make any less true or false. "The only one true God is YHWH" you cry over and over .. but without any support for claim.

The support for the claim is the Bible, understanding the Bible so that all of it is true.

Now this is fine and you are welcome to believe that YHWH is the Only God .. and the creator of all things .. but this is not what the Bible teaches.
The Bible speaks of many Gods .. some higher than YHWH ... such as the Chief God EL of the Canaanites .. The Bible tells is that YHWH is one of the Sons of EL .... and whether you belief it or not .. this is what the Israelites believed .. and this was their God after all .. not Yours.

The Bible tells us that YHWH is Almighty God and that there are no Gods higher.

 

[Sargonski]

There is the one true God EL the Highest God, who is also YHWH, and there are others whose power is such that they are called gods by humans, but whose power is nothing compared to YHWH.
Satan is one of these gods.
The battle now is to win the hearts of humans to YHWH. This is something that is done without forcing people to believe in, follow and love YHWH.

Now --- there is an interesting post -- pure unsupported speculation unfortunately, but at least you clarified your position .. and most importantly are engaging brain .. trying to reconcile the information in front of us.

So we are no longer in the land of monotheism .. but have moved into the land of more monolateralism .. belief in the existence of many Gods .. but the worship of only one .. also a belief in a divine Pantheon .. in which some are higher than others .. this is a huge change in position.... one now more in keeping with the Biblical Reality.

What is really interesting -- is how you fused EL and YHWH into one God .. and that God is head of the Pantheon .. the most powerful God.
This is really insightfull .. and almost hitting the nail squarely .. truly well done given you did it with a blind fold on !! and I am not being sarcastic or facetious here.

So .. every theologian now accepts (sans the fundamentalist but they don't count on this convo) that EL .. "most high" god of the Canaanites .. and Most High of every nation in the Region from the Babylonians to the Phonecians at the time of Abe .. Enlil in Babylon, Ellil in other places, EL in the Entire Region of Canaan .. at the time of Abe .. Literally everyone .. Egyptians - Greeks - Indo Europeans - Kelts - Spain - Punt .. Everyone knows who the Great God EL is .. and all those mentioned that do not worship him directly .. such as the Egyptians .. have an equivalent. Hene why when you go to the Encyclopedia --- EL is given as the God of the Patriarchs .. the YHWH cult starts with Moses.

BUT --- through syncretism --- YHWH morphs into EL - takes on all of EL's characteristics .. basically assumes the dude's identity .. and to this point your arrow is 100% True .. This is how all theologians - biblical historians will describe it these days in one form or another.

It is in the description - the how and the why's of how this happens .. where your train heads down the wrong track ... and YHWH.. unfortunately does not turn out to be the hero of the Story ..

What the Israelites believed was that their Patron God YHWH .. really went to battle for them .. battling against the other walled city's patron God. YHWH wins many battles .. but he loses a few .. one battle we have recorded from both sides .. both in the Bible and the Moabites themselves on the Moabite Stone .. The King of the Moabites Sacrifices his own Son to God Chemosh at the gates of the City.

The Israelites believe that YHWH is one of EL's 70 sons --- as told to us in Deut 32:8 .. each son is apportioned a people .. YHWH's portion Jacob. - "Israel" .. and this is not my Interpretation" of the Bible.. this is how the Israelites had things figured out .. and everyone knows it. .. being the rating Polytheists that they were .. their religion one very close to the Canaanites .. themselves being Canaanites .. all sharing the same beliefs .. including a lineage back to Noah .. and the Great Flood...

KK -- listen up .. in the beginning you have the 2 primordial Gods ... one of the Salt water .. one of the Fresh .. they have some kids and trouble happens .. you end up with ANU as the high God on Earth .. has kids with Asherah .. has kids .. trouble happens .. one of the Sons usurps the position of ANU .. which in this case is EL (Enlil) .. who then sleeps with his Father's wife Asherah "Queen of Heaven" and they have kids .. the 70 son's of EL .. one of these son's then Usurps the position of EL as Chief God on Earth ..El is high God in Heaven

As is with protocol .. YHWH takes Asherah as his wife .. When an Israelit went into a Temple of YHWH ... there would be an Idol- "Standing Stone" for YHWH .. and one for Asherah -- Queen of Heaven ..

The same scenario is played out in the Temple in Babylon .. the Same story .. the Same Psalms -- songs sung in the temple . .Psalm 82 .. except Marduk is in the place of YHWH .. taking his place as Chief God on Earth .. same in every other temple of the City's Patron War God .. ..

In the Israelite Story .... YHWH becomes Chief for a short period of time but then is defeated by Marduk .. the place where his name resides is destroyed.

And for another day .. but YHWH ends up being the Bad guy in the story .. them Early Christian marcionites were onto something .. Marcion preached that the benevolent God of the Gospel who sent Jesus Christ into the world as the savior was the true Supreme Being, different and opposed to the malevolent Demiurge or creator god, identified with the Hebrew God of the Old Testament.

 

[Sargonski]

The support for the claim is the Bible, understanding the Bible so that all of it is true.



The Bible tells us that YHWH is Almighty God and that there are no Gods higher.

YHWH boasts that there are no Gods of the Earth higher .. none of the other Sons of the Supreme one "EL Oliun" who YHWH defeats in Psalm 82. That is what the Bible tells us friend

 

[blü 2]

Jesus did not ‘Come to earth’. He was created in the womb of the virgin, Mary, by the overshadowing of her by the spirit of God. And THEREFORE he was HOLY as the Spirit of God is HOLY, ‘And he will be called, the Son of God’.

He didn’t RESEMBLE the Son of God - he WAS the Son of God!!

‘Son of God’ is not a procreated being. It means that the person to whom this title applies “Is doing the works of the Father: God”

I may have mentioned to you before that there are five versions of Jesus in the NT built on three main models. The earliest, Paul's, and latest, John's are similar in that, yes, they pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe. We don't know how they came to earth, but since Paul says they're descended from David, presumably they entered as spirit into the zygote of some infant newly conceived by a Jewish couple.

Then we have Mark's version. His Jesus was an ordinary Jewish male until, following his baptism by JtB, the heavens opened and God adopted him as [his] son, just as [he]'d adopted David as his son (Psalm 2:7), a view confirmed by Acts 17:33. He thus did not pre-exist in heaven.

Then we gave Matthew's Jesus and Luke's Jesus. These did not pre-exist in heaven either, but came into being when Mary was divinely inseminated. Thus they have God's Y-chromosome.

So your claim only applied to two of the five.

 

[Soapy]

I may have mentioned to you before that there are five versions of Jesus in the NT built on three main models. The earliest, Paul's, and latest, John's are similar in that, yes, they pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe. We don't know how they came to earth, but since Paul says they're descended from David, presumably they entered as spirit into the zygote of some infant newly conceived by a Jewish couple.

Then we have Mark's version. His Jesus was an ordinary Jewish male until, following his baptism by JtB, the heavens opened and God adopted him as [his] son, just as [he]'d adopted David as his son (Psalm 2:7), a view confirmed by Acts 17:33. He thus did not pre-exist in heaven.

Then we gave Matthew's Jesus and Luke's Jesus. These did not pre-exist in heaven either, but came into being when Mary was divinely inseminated. Thus they have God's Y-chromosome.

So your claim only applied to two of the five.

My claim is applicable to the truth.

‘Inseminated’ is not quite the right word but I feel I can assume you mean ‘God put the Spirit of the child that God named ‘Yeshua’, into the body (egg) of the Virgin Mary (insemination appears to imply a physical interaction!)

 

[Brian2]

Now --- there is an interesting post -- pure unsupported speculation unfortunately, but at least you clarified your position .. and most importantly are engaging brain .. trying to reconcile the information in front of us.

So we are no longer in the land of monotheism .. but have moved into the land of more monolateralism .. belief in the existence of many Gods .. but the worship of only one .. also a belief in a divine Pantheon .. in which some are higher than others .. this is a huge change in position.... one now more in keeping with the Biblical Reality.

Yes of course many people in the Bible believed in more than one God. I have never denied that. But the true is not about what people believed, it is about what God tells us and YHWH in the Bible tells us that He is the one true God.

What is really interesting -- is how you fused EL and YHWH into one God .. and that God is head of the Pantheon .. the most powerful God.
This is really insightfull .. and almost hitting the nail squarely .. truly well done given you did it with a blind fold on !! and I am not being sarcastic or facetious here.

That is a possibility which seems like it could be true but is not the only possibility.

So .. every theologian now accepts (sans the fundamentalist but they don't count on this convo) that EL .. "most high" god of the Canaanites .. and Most High of every nation in the Region from the Babylonians to the Phonecians at the time of Abe .. Enlil in Babylon, Ellil in other places, EL in the Entire Region of Canaan .. at the time of Abe .. Literally everyone .. Egyptians - Greeks - Indo Europeans - Kelts - Spain - Punt .. Everyone knows who the Great God EL is .. and all those mentioned that do not worship him directly .. such as the Egyptians .. have an equivalent. Hene why when you go to the Encyclopedia --- EL is given as the God of the Patriarchs .. the YHWH cult starts with Moses.

Yes as the Bible tells us, that is what happened. God Almighty gave His name, YHWH, to Moses.

It is in the description - the how and the why's of how this happens .. where your train heads down the wrong track ... and YHWH.. unfortunately does not turn out to be the hero of the Story ..

Well I believe the Bible story.

The Israelites believe that YHWH is one of EL's 70 sons --- as told to us in Deut 32:8 .. each son is apportioned a people .. YHWH's portion Jacob. - "Israel" .. and this is not my Interpretation" of the Bible.. this is how the Israelites had things figured out .. and everyone knows it. .. being the rating Polytheists that they were .. their religion one very close to the Canaanites .. themselves being Canaanites .. all sharing the same beliefs .. including a lineage back to Noah .. and the Great Flood...

The Masoretic text has "sons of Israel" instead of "sons of God" at Deut 32:8. Your belief about that verse is based on speculation. What YHWH tells us in the Bible is that He is God Most High (or what God Most High tells us is that He is YHWH)
I don't know where you get the idea that the Israelites believed YHWH was a son of El,,,,,,,,,,,,,, except maybe in their heresy when they were going after the worship of other gods and believing their myths and even adding to them and not believing what YHWH told them.
So you believe the Israeite heresies instead of believing what YHWH tells us about who He is.

 

[Sargonski]

Yes of course many people in the Bible believed in more than one God. I have never denied that. But the true is not about what people believed, it is about what God tells us and YHWH in the Bible tells us that He is the one true God.



That is a possibility which seems like it could be true but is not the only possibility.



Yes as the Bible tells us, that is what happened. God Almighty gave His name, YHWH, to Moses.



Well I believe the Bible story.



The Masoretic text has "sons of Israel" instead of "sons of God" at Deut 32:8. Your belief about that verse is based on speculation. What YHWH tells us in the Bible is that He is God Most High (or what God Most High tells us is that He is YHWH)
I don't know where you get the idea that the Israelites believed YHWH was a son of El,,,,,,,,,,,,,, except maybe in their heresy when they were going after the worship of other gods and believing their myths and even adding to them and not believing what YHWH told them.
So you believe the Israeite heresies instead of believing what YHWH tells us about who He is.

You say you believe the Bible story -- but you do not know that story - you go on what you heard about the Bible story .. but do not know the actual story.

In the Bible Story -- YHWH is a Son of EL .. one of the "Sons of God" - and who are you to call the Israelite beliefs about God "Heresy" .. Israelites beliefs about what the bible says "Heresy" .. That is ridiculous. If an Israelite says - The Son's of God in the Bible included Sons of the Supreme God EL .. some wanna be Bible interpreter says .. No No .. the Sons of the Supreme one are Earthly rulers .. I am going with the Israelite .. u understand ?

"MT" - Sons of Israel .. did you even bother to read the footnote ? ... and when you say you believe the Bible .. Which one ? .. you have cited from the MT .. but that text tells a different story than other Bibles. I told you previously about the decepticons .. wiping out parts of the Bible relating to other divinities .. about being blinded to the Truth .. believing the dark forces of deception are not real.

and right on cue you have run smack dab into the work of the Pious Frausters .. bless your heart .. this must be ordained on high. The MT was written from 700~900AD .. Unfortunately we had some of the other divinities removed from the text.

In recognition of this and other edits - some newer Bibles have either changed the translation or added lengthy footnote. So for this passage you want the LXX or Qumran text .. written ~2-300BC

here is a the translation in a modern bible that has corrected the MT-interpolation.

When the EL Elyon [l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
9 For YHWH's allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.

n - Heb “the sons of Israel.” The idea, perhaps, is that Israel was central to Yahweh’s purposes and all other nations were arranged and distributed according to how they related to Israel. See S. R. Driver, Deuteronomy (ICC), 355-56. For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bene yisraʾel, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelōn theou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bene ʾel) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (bene ʾelim). “Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan. 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly. For a defense of the view taken here, see M. S. Heiser, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God,” BSac 158 (2001): 52-74.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32 - New English Translation

Invocation of Witnesses - Listen, O heavens, and I will speak; hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My teaching will drop like the rain, my sayings will drip like the dew, as rain drops upon the grass, and showers upon new growth. For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; you must acknowledge...

www.biblegateway.com

The footnote mentions and apologises a bit for the "Sons of Israel" translation ..then Goes on to talk about what the Israelites believed -- namely that EL Elyon - is the High God EL -- and the "Heavently Assembly" = Sons of God" is the Divine assembly of EL - Same as the one mentioned in Psalm 82. and the "Sons of the Supreme one" in Psalm 82 .. the Supreme one referring to EL are the same sons of God referred to here.

What we have is EL dividing up the peoples of the Earth among the Sons of God - "Sons of God undoubtedly the original reading" - YHWH's allotment is his people Jacob.

Psalm 82
1) YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment

what part of .... YHWH standing in the midst of the Gods .. not on earth but up in heaven in the "assembly of EL" is not crystal clear. This assembly is made up of Gods .. many of which are Sons of Gods.... one of which our friend Ha Satan.

In verse 5 YHWH defeats the other Sons of the Supreme one --- "I say you are Gods, Sons of the Supreme one (EL Oliun) - yet you will die like mortal Yet you will die like mortals;[o] you will fall like all the other rulers.”[p] Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth!
For you own[q] all the nations.

land there you have it . YHWH wins the battle I have been telling you about - defeats the other Sons of the Supreme one. Obviously YHWH is not the Supreme one .. as the Gods he defeated are not his Sons .. but the Son's of his Father EL.. and sons of other Gods if you take the plural.

YHWH then picks up all the other nations .. previously alloted to the other sons of God .. now YHWH .. who was previously allotted only the Seed of Jacob .. is now Chief God on Earth .. Just like I have been telling you.