Was Jesus A Gnostic?

slabbey06 · Jul 18, 2007

Popeyesays said:
Jesus was a man, born of woman, therefore He was not God. He was as close to God as I can comprehend and still not God.

Regards,
Scott

This is what the heart of our conversation comes down to. I believe He is a Man, but I also believe He is God. I believe He is fully both, God became a Man, dwelt among us, sacrificed Himself on our behalf because we are dead in our transgressions and sin, unable to save ourselves. The only one who can pay the penalty for our sin is someone who is sinless. And God is the only One who is without sin. So in His love He took on flesh and died for us and rose again, enabling us to be reconciled to Him through faith in His finished work.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11

doppelganger · Jul 18, 2007

" being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,"

That doesn't sound like he was "a man" to me . . . :shrug:

It should have said, "being made as a human and being found as a man . . . " right? What's with all these "likenesses" and "appearances"?

Popeyesays · Jul 18, 2007

Well, Paul says what he wants to say--doesn't make him right--in Phillipians or anywhere else. Paul never saw Jesus eat, or sweat in the sun or work wood with his hands, so Paul's vision of Christ is incomplete.

I cannot contain the oceans in a teacup, and the vessel of a man cannot contain the magnificence of God. If any small piece of God CAN be contained in a man then as soon as the vessel is full whatever was contained within ceases to be God.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · Jul 18, 2007

doppelgänger;883384 said:
" being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,"

That doesn't sound like he was "a man" to me . . . It should have said, "being made as a human and being found as a man . . . " right? What's with all these "likenesses" and "appearances"?

It takes 'likenesses, and appearances" to the '200% being' to make sense. Man is man and God is NOT man. Man is a creation and God is not a creation.

Regards,
Scott

slabbey06 · Jul 18, 2007

doppelgänger;883384 said:
" being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,"

That doesn't sound like he was "a man" to me . . . It should have said, "being made as a human and being found as a man . . . " right? What's with all these "likenesses" and "appearances"?

I'll look into it and let you know what I find.

slabbey06 · Jul 18, 2007

Popeyesays said:
Well, Paul says what he wants to say--doesn't make him right--in Phillipians or anywhere else. Paul never saw Jesus eat, or sweat in the sun or work wood with his hands, so Paul's vision of Christ is incomplete.

Regards,
Scott

Well, this brings up a whole different issue entirely. Is the Bible the Word of God or the opinion of men. If this i something you're interested in discussing, we could start a new thread.

Popeyesays · Jul 18, 2007

I have no difficulty with the bible being "The Word of God". However the commentaries (Epistles and revelations) are one thing and the Gospels are another.

Paul wrote to the best of his understanding and ability--but that is a HUUUUGE proviso. Paul's understanding and ability were limited. So, too, for qualities of the authors of the Gospels. The Gospels however have an apparent history as oral tradition and being transcribed as oral tradition--they are more a record than a commentary.

My rule of thumb is if Jesus says it, it is far closer to being the pure word of God than if Paul says it--or John, or Titus, etc..

The Bible as we know it cannot BE perfect, because we cannot trace the hands that wrote the documents.

The Qur'an has a better provenance and the writings of the Baha`i Faith have an even better provenance. We can recognize the hand of Baha`u'llah, or the various hands of His secretaries who transcribed His recitations.

Regards,

Scott

A. Ben-Shema · Jul 18, 2007

slabbey06 said:
Well, this brings up a whole different issue entirely. Is the Bible the Word of God or the opinion of men. If this i something you're interested in discussing, we could start a new thread.

Do you really understand the difference between:

1). "THE WORD ('Logos') of God", and

2). "the 'word'(s) of (about) God".

The first refers to the Divine / Spiritual / Mystic / Ineffable Reality of Truth - to God HIMSELF! NOT A BOOK!

The Bible is a mixture of Truth and falsehood authored, edited, copied, interpreted, and translated by so many, that it is certain that satan played his part. :yes:

Peace & Love

Popeyesays · Jul 18, 2007

Yes, God is first. But we cannot know God in His Divine Essence. Therefore we must look depend upon the Manifestations to reflect the Light of God to us in a way which we can comprehend.

Like it or not, some of Those manifestations DID write things down or cause them to be written down.

Regards,
Scott

MOZedek · Jul 18, 2007

if Christ was a Gnostic he too would have "died"- but being who he is he is. and so we are today called after him - Christian obtaned from the GK. chrism

A. Ben-Shema · Jul 19, 2007

MOZedek said:
if Christ was a Gnostic he too would have "died"- but being who he is he is. and so we are today called after him - Christian obtaned from the GK. chrism

Explain yourself. This is just a collection of words with no meaning.

Peace & Love

MOZedek · Jul 19, 2007

As Christ himself said -you forget about the Living and speak of the dead- The book of THomas
in reference to he himself being a "prophet"- he did not take a body -A physical body as these other men have and so have "died" he instead enterred into this aeon as an aeon himself or as some put it "GOD" therefore he established that which is TRUE- of which the Gnosis is but a shadow

Sonic247 · Jul 19, 2007

Popeyesays said:
My rule of thumb is if Jesus says it, it is far closer to being the pure word of God than if Paul says it--or John, or Titus, etc..

I don't want to strain at a gnat here but Titus was written by Paul to Titus, same thing with Timothy.

doppelganger · Jul 19, 2007

Sonic247 said:
I don't want to strain at a gnat here but Titus was written by Paul to Titus, same thing with Timothy.

The "Pastoral Epistles" (Titus, 1 and 2 Tim.) are regarded by most Biblical scholars and historians as not of Pauline authorship. Personally, I agree with the majority, that they are probably non-Pauline because of the tone, style and factual content that suggests a second century Church setting for their authorship.

Sonic247 · Jul 19, 2007

doppelgänger;884687 said:
The "Pastoral Epistles" (Titus, 1 and 2 Tim.) are regarded by most Biblical scholars and historians as not of Pauline authorship. Personally, I agree with the majority, that they are probably non-Pauline because of the tone, style and factual content that suggests a second century Church setting for their authorship.

I'll admit I'm no expert on the issue, but the author introduces himself as Paul the Apostle, he gives his trademark testimony, so unless that is a forgery..

doppelganger · Jul 19, 2007

Sonic247 said:
so unless that is a forgery..

Everybody is more comfortable with the term "pseudonymous."

*Paul* · Jul 19, 2007

A. Ben-Shema said:
A. Ben-Shema said:

First we must clearly define what a genuine Gnostic is. The word comes from ancient Greek (Gnosis), and means Divine (i.e. Mystical / Spiritual) experiential KNOWLEDGE of Truth / God (i.e. the “Supreme Power”, or the “ALL&#8221. Thus a genuine Gnostic is one who has such “first-hand” Divine KNOWLEDGE of God. (N.B. NOT mere 'beliefs' and 'theories'!)

Click to expand...

Jesus is the very manifestation of God, it's not that He has fist hand knowledge of God any more than I have first hand knowledge of me. He is the Divine, He is the Logos, He is The truth not someone who has a knowledge of it, He is the embodiment of it.

It's just as though John's gospel had not been written sometimes.

The question is: was Jesus a Gnostic? If what we are told in the New Testament is true, then obviously Jesus must have been a true Gnostic, as must ALL the other great Prophets and Masters of the Old Testament – not to mention the many other great Masters such as Siddhartha (Buddha), Krishna, Mohammed, Zarathushtra, Nanak, etc. etc.

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Feel free to call these guys gnostics if you wish.

To believe that God would only reveal Himself to one ‘clan’ (or ‘race&#8217 of people (i.e. the Hebrews/Jews) demonstrates the typical blindness and ignorance of exoteric religion!

Click to expand...

Yet God himself says He did just this:

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: Deuteronomy 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
To deny this demonstrates stubborness and blindness to the words of Jehovah.

It is claimed that the “Israelites” are the “chosen people of God.” This claim is, indeed, true – but again we have to understand what this name or “title” actually means in the ancient Hebrew. The term ISRAEL comes from three Hebrew roots: ’ish (= a Spiritual ‘being’ / ‘human’ ra’eh (= ‘seeing’ / ’vision’ and ’el (= ‘God’ / ‘Supreme Spirit&#8217. Thus, when put together, the word (Israel) means: “Spiritual one(s) who SEE / KNOW God.”

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Yisra'el =
God prevails
From the root word Sarah ( a primitive root word)
contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere
a) (Qal) to persevere, contend with
and
el -
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
b) angels
c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

From this explanation it should be quite obvious that the term does not apply to any particular ‘race’ or ‘clan’ of people, but to ALL those who SEE, and thus KNOW, God, i.e. genuine Gnostics! So certainly the true ‘Israelites’ (i.e. Gnostics) are the 'chosen people' of God!

Click to expand...

This explanation does not fit with the etymology of the word Israel which as you can see means contends with or has power with God (so named after Jacob wrestled the Angel of the LORD)

A. Ben-Shema · Jul 19, 2007

*Paul* said:
Jesus is the very manifestation of God, it's not that He has fist hand knowledge of God any more than I have first hand knowledge of me. He is the Divine, He is the Logos, He is The truth not someone who has a knowledge of it, He is the embodiment of it.

You don't seem to understand the difference between 'Jesus' (i.e. the 'man', who lived & died 2,000 yrs ago), and the 'Logos' (the Divine & Eternal Spirit of Truth which entered the 'man' Jesus at his Baptism / Initiation, and which thus made him a CHRIST = a 'Spiritually' Anointed One).

It's just as though John's gospel had not been written sometimes.

Yes, it is certainly not understood correctly by many! :no:

Feel free to call these guys gnostics if you wish.

Thanks for your generosity. I wonder what you would call them?

Yet God himself says He did just this:

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 [speaking to the 'Gnostics' = the 'chosen ones'] For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

To deny this demonstrates stubborness and blindness to the words of Jehovah.

Who's denying the Truth of genuine Gnosis? And who is blind? :cover:

Yisra'el =
God prevails
From the root word Sarah [???] ( a primitive root word)
contend, have power, contend with, persist, exert oneself, persevere
a) (Qal) [???] to persevere, contend with
and
el -
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
b) angels
c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

This explanation does not fit with the etymology of the word Israel which as you can see means contends with or has power with God (so named after Jacob wrestled the Angel of the LORD)

The true and original etymology is precisely as I have previously explained (i.e. Israel = 'those who see/know God' = genuine Gnostics). If you prefer to believe the 'orthodox' worldly ('Pharisee') etymology, that is your business.
The first century Jewish Mystic Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (a contemporary of Jesus) points this out in his writings.

Gen 32:30 "because I (Jacob, thus renamed 'ISRAEL') saw God face to face, my life was spared.

Peace & Love

slabbey06 · Jul 19, 2007

doppelgänger;883384 said:
" being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,"

That doesn't sound like he was "a man" to me . . . It should have said, "being made as a human and being found as a man . . . " right? What's with all these "likenesses" and "appearances"?

Ok... I did a word study of the Greek words translated "likeness" and "appearance." They're actually the perfect words to use, because they emphasis His humanity without deemphasizing his Deity.
From Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words...

"'Likeness' denotes that which is made like something, a resemblance... in Phil. 2:7, 'the likeness of men.' The expression 'likeness of men' does not of itself imply , still less does it exclude or diminish, the reality of the nature which Christ assumed. That... is declared in the words 'form of a servant.' Paul justly says 'in likeness of men', because, in fact, Christ, although certainly perfect Man (Rom. 5:15; I Cor. 15:21; 1 Tim. 2:5), was, by reason of the Divine nature present in Him, not simply and merely man... but the Incarnate Son of God."(page 372)

Appearance... "A figure, fashion... in Phil. 2:8 it is used of the Lord in His being found "in fashion" as a man, and signifies what He was in the eyes of men, 'the entire outwardly perceptible mode and shape of His existence, just as the preceding words morphe, 'form,' and homoioma, 'likeness,' describe what He was in Himself as Man. Men saw in Christ a human form, bearing, language, action, mode of life... in general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of His appearance He made Himself known and was recognized as a man." (page 227)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:1-3, 14a

A. Ben-Shema · Jul 19, 2007

A. Ben-Shema said:
What ARE you saying? The Spirit NEVER changes - it is ETERNAL and CHANGELESS - it is TRUTH!

This is the false teaching of Paul - the author of Christianity. The religion would be better called Paulism.

Jesus had authority to forgive sins while living, without the necessity of His death:
Matt 9:5-6 "Which is easier: to say, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up and walk? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ."

It seems also that Jesus bestowed this authority to His initiated disciples:
John 20:22-23 "And with that he [Jesus] breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

What say ye?

Sonic, I am still awaiting your reply.

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