Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

Debater Slayer said:

I agree. I have never said such a thing, though, so I'm not sure whether the above was meant as a reply to my post. I know that mental health issues are far from imaginary.

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Fear not, it was a word used in a previous post by someone else.

Shadow Wolf said:

What do you mean by better? I've learned how to better socialize with people. I've learned how to better cope with and management outbursts and meltdowns. I still sometimes have problems with sensory overload, but I've learned how to better manage things to help reduce the chances of that happening.

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"Better" in the sense implied by the poster, as in ASC is lifelong, whether or not its effects are mitigated. I am aware of how strategies can improve social interactions.

Secret Chief said:

"Better" in the sense implied by the poster, as in ASC is lifelong, whether or not its effects are mitigated. I am aware of how strategies can improve social interactions.

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In that regard it is impossible to say improvement can't happen. Yes, Autism is life long and never goes away. But with knowledge, support, appropriate coping methods and symptom management there is a possibility of improvement in quality of life.
And in mental and physical health that is sometimes as good as it gets. There is no cure, but improvements are possible. And we can't predict the future so we cannot say a given individual will or will not improve from a given treatment.

Shadow Wolf said:

In that regard it is impossible to say improvement can't happen. Yes, Autism is life long and never goes away. But with knowledge, support, appropriate coping methods and symptom management there is a possibility of improvement in quality of life.
And in mental and physical health that is sometimes as good as it gets. There is no cure, but improvements are possible. And we can't predict the future so we cannot say a given individual will or will not improve from a given treatment.

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I'm in agreement with all of this. I was just trying to say it is real (rather than "imaginary") and it is lifelong and yes there can be improvements.

Kathryn said:

I actually sort of agree with you but a link would be great. And I don't know why the site posted your post twice but I'm too lazy to try to figure it out.

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Here's a generalized look at it.

Constant stress means your cortisol and adrenaline levels will constantly be high and you’ll seldom return to a “resting” state. It can have a negative effect on your organs and bodily functions. What’s more is that anxiety and depression may actually lower your pain tolerance. The parts of the brain responsible for pain reception also relate to anxiety and depression, and the two neurotransmitters (serotonin and norepinephrine) that are responsible for pain signaling in the brain and nervous system are also implicated in anxiety and depression.

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There's also things like IBS. Doctors can find nothing wrong with the body, but the pain and suffering is real and it's more commonly seen in those who had adversial childhoods and have stressful lives.

Shadow Wolf said:

How about you learn hiw treatment really works instead of getting it embarassingly wrong. Give up hope? Clearly you don't know much about mental healthcare. The goal is to help patients achieve their dreams and help them find hope. However, some illnesses will not be cured. Such as schizophrenia. Treatment can help but it's never going away.
And by the way, what you call subjective science calls genetics and brain maldevelopment.
Also I never siad we should label them hopeless. That's all you reading nonsense into my posts. Encourage them to off themselves? Shame on you.

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So the person who believes doctors should be able to kill their patients because of labels they assigned to them has shamed me for advocating for those patients. Wow, I feel so deeply ashamed and remorseful. NOT!

Twilight Hue said:

I can't find any major news reporting this, and I hope to god it isn't true, but several secondary media sources are running with this recent story involving a perfectly healthy woman who was told her depression is incurable and she will never ever get better, and will be voluntarily killing herself next month at the time this story is published.

MSN

I'm an advocate of euthanasia, but this doesn't sound right as I've never heard of any incurable mental illness aside from mental retardation or some other issue involving a person's brain where their behavior is severely compromised.

For me this is suicide and not euthanasia , but I also feel if a person wants to end their life, it's their business when all is said and done. Still , I feel this is a really bad decision and I hope , if true, this gets averted.

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Your post reminded me of a news article I came across a while ago. Maker of suicide pod plans to launch in Switzerland

Secret Chief said:

An impressive level of ignorance. Your "imaginary conditions" have always existed, but historically were not assessed and identified (and named). And they don't mean potential life achievements are restricted, but identification of them can assist people in various ways.

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Some mental health conditions have objectively measurable characteristics, yes, but the vast majority do not.

MelancholicPotatoChip said:

Your post reminded me of a news article I came across a while ago. Maker of suicide pod plans to launch in Switzerland

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Hopefully the so-called doctors who invent things like this will be the first to test them out.

Rational Agnostic said:

So the person who believes doctors should be able to kill their patients because of labels they assigned to them

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Ok, for one I have a degree and professional background in mental health. I've also known many who are quite mentally ill, including myself at times.
Two, you have severely and grossly misrepresented me and twisted my words. And you do this while being so terribly wrong about the subject you call mental illness subjective "labels" and say they aren't real.
Go meet someone who's profoundly schizophrenic and come back and tell me with a straight face its just a subjective label and nothing real. Go chat with someone who's agoraphobic. Try counciling someone in the midst of a meltdown. Try living with someone who has borderline personality disorder. Or try bipolar. Effoxor let me feel what it's like having bipolar 2.

Twilight Hue said:

involving a perfectly healthy woman

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A discussion we aren't havint that needs to be had is what does it mean to be well and healthy. This actually is not a question that can be objectively answered because well and healthy can be a very subjective state of mind. To many this simply means free od pain and symptoms and is rooted in physical health. But if you live with chronic pain in order to say you are feeling well and healthy you have to be accepting that pain as a part of your life. There's also the reality that you may have nothing at all that appears to be a symptom or pain or anything but nevertheless people have died eating fruits strictly forbidden to them.
My favorite is Cotards. With it, the person suffering believes either a body part or they themselves have died.
And chronic depression is also interesting. It's not just feeling down and depressed, it often comes with crap sleep, aches and pains, poor appetite, fatigue, anhedonia, weaken the immune system and totally suck the life out of someone.
And we also know an adversial childhood malforms the brain and causes it to not properly function, such developing a frontal cortext that leaves the victim inba state of constant hypervigilance.
Well and healthy is such an indepth and complicated subject that intro medical anthropology textbooks spend a chapter on the subject. But it's definitely not just free of physiological pain amd symptoms. Clearly this woman would not describe herself as such. She's not perfectly healthy or she wouldn't feel as she does.

☆Dreamwind☆ said:

When a patient's rights are respected. When the word NO is respected, when they no longer weild undisputed legal power over complete strangers, and treatment is totally voluntary, THEN and only THEN can people have a chance to heal.

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Do you know what patient's rights are?
Do you know how much power clinicians actually have? We can't make them do their homework or actively participate in their treatment plan. Wield undisputed legal power? The most that can happen is if there is solid evidence someone is a danger to themselves or another we can get ahold of the authorities (including a judge who must approve this) to hamdle things amd have the patient committed for observation in a hospital.
I also worked as an outside service provider for state (Indiana) Department of Child Services and could act as a legal gaurdian, but even that was limited and restricted.

☆Dreamwind☆ said:

To be frank, the mental health care system is anything but. No one stigmatizes or dehumanizes their patients more cruelly then psychiatrists and therapists.

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Some, yes, but let's not paint with such a broad brush.

☆Dreamwind☆ said:

No one takes away their agency, commits irreperable physical and emòtional harm, and violates all human rights faster. And in a way that no other doctor could dare get away with, while society applauds it.

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Except that's not at all what goes on, and by the way society does **** on you when you work in the field, people will tell you your position is useless and worthless, amd some will get ****ty with you if you have anything to do with a state department charged with removing children from abusive and neglectful environments. You are the bad guy, you are a parahiah and people will hate you when your job includes that.

☆Dreamwind☆ said:

How can anyone get better when their doctors tell them they'll never get better? How can anyone not be depressed when forced to bend to their will with threats, sedation, violence, institutionalization, and medications they can't refuse?

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That's not what they say. No cure is not the same as unable to get better. In this regard chronic depression my crap knees have a lot in common. There is no cure. There is no getting better like when you get a cold which you'll get over and be healed from. But there are means to manage and help reduce symptoms. Regular exercise is great for both. I still have symptoms, I always will, but I still get around.

Shadow Wolf said:

Ok, for one I have a degree and professional background in mental health. I've also known many who are quite mentally ill, including myself at times.
Two, you have severely and grossly misrepresented me and twisted my words. And you do this while being so terribly wrong about the subject you call mental illness subjective "labels" and say they aren't real.
Go meet someone who's profoundly schizophrenic and come back and tell me with a straight face its just a subjective label and nothing real. Go chat with someone who's agoraphobic. Try counciling someone in the midst of a meltdown. Try living with someone who has borderline personality disorder. Or try bipolar. Effoxor let me feel what it's like having bipolar 2.

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No, you are misrepresenting me. Re-read what I said in post #380. I said many mental health conditions are defined by subjective criteria and are not objectively real, not all. Apparently once you saw the words "subjective" or "not real," you reacted emotionally to the point where you could no longer logically process anything I said or engage in a normal discussion and instead started shaming me. While continuing to argue for doctors killing their suicidal patients as a legitimate treatment for these patients.

Rational Agnostic said:

Re-read what I said in post #380.

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Alright, so what do you mean by humanmade categories?

A broken bone has the chance to heal. Scars may toughen. An open wound is harder to handle. Mental illness can be like the open wound of a hemophiliac. It requires treatment. You can have cancer and be cancer free on the other side. You can’t be schizophrenic free. There is no other side. It can only be managed. Sympathy is one thing. Empathy is something else.

Everything is a humanmade category.

Rational Agnostic said:

So the person who believes doctors should be able to kill their patients because of labels they assigned to them has shamed me for advocating for those patients. Wow, I feel so deeply ashamed and remorseful. NOT!

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Dude!
You straight whupped that strawmans arse!

LadyJane said:

Alright, so what do you mean by humanmade categories?

A broken bone has the chance to heal. Scars may toughen. An open wound is harder to handle. Mental illness can be like the open wound of a hemophiliac. It requires treatment. You can have cancer and be cancer free on the other side. You can’t be schizophrenic free. There is no other side. It can only be managed. Sympathy is one thing. Empathy is something else.

Everything is a humanmade category.

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Cancer and broken bones are objectively visible and quantifiable things. Some extreme mental conditions like schizophrenia or psychopathy are also and can be detected on brain scans. Others (and the majority of mental illnesses) like ADD, OCD, depression, and anxiety are subjectively diagnosed via arbitrary criteria and not objectively measured. Does this help you understand?

McBell said:

Research shows that people with a mental health problem are more likely to have a preventable physical health condition such as heart disease.​

​

This can be for a variety of reasons, including:​

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genetics – the genes that make it more likely that you will develop a mental health problem may also play a part in physical health problems​

low motivation – some mental health problems or medications can affect your energy or motivation to take care of yourself​

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difficulty with concentration and planning – you may find it hard to arrange or attend medical appointments if your mental health problem affects your concentration​

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lack of support to change unhealthy behaviour – healthcare professionals may assume you’re not capable of making changes, so won’t offer any support to cut down on drinking or give up smoking, for example​

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being less likely to receive medical help – healthcare professionals may assume your physical symptoms are part of your mental illness and not investigate them further. People with a mental illness are less likely to receive routine checks (like blood pressure, weight and cholesterol) that might detect symptoms of physical health conditions earlier.​

​

As well as this, mental health problems can come with physical symptoms. Our bodies and minds are not separate, so it’s not surprising that mental ill health can affect your body. Depression can come with headaches, fatigue and digestive problems, and anxiety can create an upset stomach, for example. Other symptoms can include insomnia, restlessness and difficulty concentrating.​

Physical health and mental health

How your mental health affects your physical health, and what you can do to help yourself.

www.mentalhealth.org.uk

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Thank you!

Also. for the record. I believe, like in my mom's case, her weakest organ was her brain (not her mind, her brain) because when she was younger, she suffered from (and so did her family but I digress) bipolar 1 disorder and when she was older, she had a stroke and then vascular dementia, all of which are brain disorders.

Rational Agnostic said:

I didn't strawman anyone. You and @Shadow Wolf clearly supported this doctor's right to kill this otherwise healthy patient

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• When have you talked to her, let alone met her?
• When did you examine her medical records?.
• What is your Doctor specialty?
• When did you examine her?
• What do you know about The Dutch Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide Act?

After you answer these questions we can talk about your claim of "otherwise healthy person"...

Rational Agnostic said:

Does this help you understand?

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I understand you are hung up on the word objective. When medicine mostly relies on a scientific consensus. At the time. Several doctors can be looking at the same x-ray and not see exactly the same thing. Humans are fallible. Doctors, surgeons and the folks interpreting your blood results.

Your criteria doesn't account for autoimmune diseases. Which take time to diagnose as the symptoms don't all arrive conveniently at once. People with Rheumatoid arthritis may have a negative ANA or low RF blood test but still have Rheumatoid arthritis. They may not have an elevated erythrocyte sedimentation rate or C-reactive protein level but have the inflammation that causes pain.

A patient with Lupus may test positive for ANA and have remarkable inflammation but never present with the Malar rash and go undiagnosed for years. Diseases attacking the eyes, veins, organs, skin, connective tissue, myelin sheath, all by the body's own immune system. Are these imaginary? They are often invisible. And it makes people feel invisible.

Is something only real after we develop an instrument capable of measuring it or are the tools we use to measure allowing us to understand what's real?