Reasons for Atheism if you aren't in the DIR

Jayhawker Soule said:

Thanks for the clarification, but I continue to be uncomfortable with point #4. In my opinion,

• the set of "what can be understood" grows almost daily, and
• informed and disciplined speculation is a remarkable and ongoing human achievement.

Click to expand...

I see it as a difference between interest and obsession...discovery and fiction.

Kfox said:

I've always wondered what is it about the Universe that causes people to assume it was actually created?

Click to expand...

That's just a function of the nature of our intelligence. Don't go gaslighting the universe because of our failings.

Jayhawker Soule said:

Thanks for the clarification, but I continue to be uncomfortable with point #4. In my opinion,

• the set of "what can be understood" grows almost daily, and
• informed and disciplined speculation is a remarkable and ongoing human achievement.

Click to expand...

If you are aware of psychological side effects that can come from speculation, and you are prepared to deal with it, then speculate and deal with the stuff that bubbles up from your unconscious mind as you work through your speculation.

People who make discoveries often suffer with the side effects that come with speculation. Take Isaac Newton for example.

A great deal of people who make such discoveries come out transformed after going through their "mad scientist" experience.

Niatero said:

I wanted to respond to that question, but I'm not in the DIR and I don't want to be, because I don't identify as one and I might not be qualifed. There might be other people who are not in the DIR who would want to give their reasons. I'll give mine in a separate post.

Click to expand...

Organized religion is an extension of parenting. Its easy to see this, so its one of the first realizations that people have if anything goes wrong in their lives that causes them to question the religion of their childhood. Sometimes its all it takes for them to become irreligious. Some are more heavily connected to their religion than others. Questioning their religion can be emotionally related to questioning their parents, and it often feels the same. One can follow the other very closely, too.

Belief in God is much more complicated, if that wasn't complicated enough. Many people have a personal relationship with God, which means that they can feel betrayed by God, let down, ignored, hated, forgotten etc. I imagine in a way it is like being a Vietnam veteran in the USA, though I am not a veteran and have only met one or two in person. There so many songs about the betrayal that soldiers feel when their country lets them down, and I see an analogy to people who feel let down by God.

I have trouble empathizing when people say they stopped believing in God because of some abstract reasoning, not because there aren't any rational arguments but because people are emotional more than we are rational. I respect my colleagues here in the forum, but I feel alienated by this explanation. How can a person let go of God only because they read something which made them believe God didn't make sense? I don't grasp this, unless they never had an emotional connection. I don't say its impossible, but I don't see such a person as someone who ever really left belief in God if that belief had no feeling. Its not the same experience if no experience is felt. In that case it sounds more like doing a crossword puzzle than going from belief to un.

It is possible though. Why? Because a *lot* of children are taught to believe in God because of various proofs. This makes it a less personal thing and more of an abstract process. Its not a decision but a fact impressed by a parent. The moment the proof proves fallacious its just like almost nothing has changed. That is how I imagine that experience.

crossfire said:

If you are aware of psychological side effects that can come from speculation, and you are prepared to deal with it, then speculate and deal with the stuff that bubbles up from your unconscious mind as you work through your speculation.

Click to expand...

In other words:

Jayhawker Soule said:

In other words:

Don't think! It can be dangerous.​

Click to expand...

Don't eat from that tree of knowledge

Niatero said:

I don't think that there is anything that anyone will ever be able to imagine, describe or define, that created the universe. I agree with the Buddha that speculating about it either way, whether or not he/she/they/it exist(s) is a useless, counterproductive and positively harmful distraction which drives people mad (in more ways than one). God says so Himself.

I'm not actually sure how I ended up here. Maybe because I saw myself going mad (in more ways than one) trying to find some way for it to have some meaning for me to say that an unknowable creator exists, or does not exist.

Click to expand...

I think people need to stop equating atheism with beliefs about how the universe originated.




As for my reason to be an atheist.... it is the wrong question to ask.

I don't require reasons to NOT believe claims.
It's the other way round: I require reasons TO believe claims.
And since I don't have reasons to believe theistic claims, I don't.
And that makes me an atheist by default.

bobhikes said:

Magical thinking is what got us to where we are today and is at the heart of the very beginning of Science.

Click to expand...

I think that by "magical thinking" you mean something very differently then what @icehorse was talking about.

bobhikes said:

As to why I don't believe in God simply experience. I don't consider myself an Atheist because I don't really care about Religion as a whole. Which is why I am not in the Atheist DIR.

Click to expand...

If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist.

Brickjectivity said:

I have trouble empathizing when people say they stopped believing in God because of some abstract reasoning, not because there aren't any rational arguments but because people are emotional more than we are rational. I respect my colleagues here in the forum, but I feel alienated by this explanation.

Click to expand...

Perhaps because the arguments for or against any God existing are not really that clear-cut (unless already a believer) but where the evidence tends to side against God - if one looks at the spread of evidence, and which does tend to involve so many spheres of knowledge - even as to knowledge of oneself. And which then might outweigh any emotional feelings as to such?

Brickjectivity said:

How can a person let go of God only because they read something which made them believe God didn't make sense?

Click to expand...

Only? Well, quite easy, if one has the courage to question and seek out that which might produce such a result. Do some simply assume that the God belief is the default position - especially if felt - and that therefore every parent has the right to instill this into their children as a right, but which is simply a bias being passed on. Perhaps we should ask, firstly - does a god make sense? Any toddler should be able to answer this satisfactorily.

Brickjectivity said:

I don't grasp this, unless they never had an emotional connection. I don't say its impossible, but I don't see such a person as someone who ever really left belief in God if that belief had no feeling. Its not the same experience if no experience is felt. In that case it sounds more like doing a crossword puzzle than going from belief to un.

Click to expand...

Even if you don't believe that an emotional connection to God might be delusional I'm afraid that is not my belief. There are plenty of such experiences that involve no God or gods, so why attach any particular one experience to such?

Mock Turtle said:

Perhaps because the arguments for or against any God existing are not really that clear-cut (unless already a believer) but where the evidence tends to side against God - if one looks at the spread of evidence, and which does tend to involve so many spheres of knowledge - even as to knowledge of oneself. And which then might outweigh any emotional feelings as to such?

Only? Well, quite easy, if one has the courage to question and seek out that which might produce such a result. Do some simply assume that the God belief is the default position - especially if felt - and that therefore every parent has the right to instill this into their children as a right, but which is simply a bias being passed on. Perhaps we should ask, firstly - does a god make sense? Any toddler should be able to answer this satisfactorily.

Even if you don't believe that an emotional connection to God might be delusional I'm afraid that is not my belief. There are plenty of such experiences that involve no God or gods, so why attach any particular one experience to such?

Click to expand...

I think without a common experience its difficult to discuss it. At the moment I don't remember what your experience has been with religion.

Brickjectivity said:

I think without a common experience its difficult to discuss it. At the moment I don't remember what your experience has been with religion.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, and mine hasn't been as to ever feeling a connection to something conceivable as 'God'. But then there might be reasons for this perhaps - me being not worthy or just plain evil or just not the seeker type.

Niatero said:

I wanted to respond to that question, but I'm not in the DIR and I don't want to be, because I don't identify as one and I might not be qualifed. There might be other people who are not in the DIR who would want to give their reasons. I'll give mine in a separate post.

Click to expand...

Accepting one's own ignorance about God is enough of a reason for me.

Nakosis said:

Accepting one's own ignorance about God is enough of a reason for me.

Click to expand...

That’s not far from my reason. Did go through any time of trying to figure it out before you gave up? I did.

Niatero said:

That’s not far from my reason. Did go through any time of trying to figure it out before you gave up? I did.

Click to expand...

It took a long time for me to accept my ignorance. I think perhaps because so many people seemed certain about their knowledge of God.

How could so many people have so much certainty based on nothing more than faith I suppose. Hard to wrap your head around that. Weirdly enough, I have had conversations with "God" and it was through these conversations that "God" convinced me of man's ignorance.

So if you managed to work through all of this on your own, perhaps you are smarter than me.

Nakosis said:

It took a long time for me to accept my ignorance. I think perhaps because so many people seemed certain about their knowledge of God.

How could so many people have so much certainty based on nothing more than faith I suppose. Hard to wrap your head around that. Weirdly enough, I have had conversations with "God" and it was through these conversations that "God" convinced me of man's ignorance.

So if you managed to work through all of this on your own, perhaps you are smarter than me.

Click to expand...

I got some help from God too. He kept telling me that it’s impossible and always will be for anyone to know anything about Him, and it finally dawned on me, that includes not knowing if He exists or not.

Niatero said:

I got some help from God too. He kept telling me that it’s impossible and always will be for anyone to know anything about Him, and it finally dawned on me, that includes not knowing if He exists or not.

Click to expand...

That's weird. I assume most wouldn't understand that part.

Mock Turtle said:

Fair enough, and mine hasn't been as to ever feeling a connection to something conceivable as 'God'. But then there might be reasons for this perhaps - me being not worthy or just plain evil or just not the seeker type.

Click to expand...

We can't please everyone. Maybe God hates you? Maybe God ignores you? Its obviously a position one has to consider when flippantly considering the possibility of God at all. The shield of agnosticism though is usually for the purpose of fending off an imposition of theocracy of some sort. I doubt anybody wakes up one morning thinking "I'll invent a concept of monotheism, call it God and then doubt if it is relevant to myself."

Brickjectivity said:

We can't please everyone. Maybe God hates you? Maybe God ignores you? Its obviously a position one has to consider when flippantly considering the possibility of God at all. The shield of agnosticism though is usually for the purpose of fending off an imposition of theocracy of some sort. I doubt anybody wakes up one morning thinking "I'll invent a concept of monotheism, call it God and then doubt if it is relevant to myself."

Click to expand...

Good points.

I highly suspect there are some Gods that like me, and some that do not.

I also suspect Gods view this all a lot more differently than humans do.

Niatero said:

My first thought is that maybe it happens when people start seeing things happening outside of human control, that look like what they previously thought only humans could do. It's funny in a way, because our idea of what only humans can do comes from not seeing it happen outside of human control. Logically, seeing things happen outside of human control that we previously thought only humans could do would simply change our idea of what only humans can do. Maybe sometimes people's ideas of what only humans can do becomes fixed so that instead of revising their ideas of what only humans can do, they start thinking that there must be some human-like being out there doing those things outside of human control that they thought only humans can do.

Click to expand...

I have no idea how this answers my question but..........Okay!