If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was their rebellion possible?

Thread title question, plus a followup question:

1. If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was rebellion possible?
2. If it was possible for Satan and his angels to be thrown out of heaven, how are those in heaven assured their place is permanent?

God is Unseen, so he is seen through signs, veils of light, and even the highest signs which are united with him to such a close degree "two bows or closer still" are not him.

God no matter how manifest, has an element of unseen that the ego can deny. The day of judgment, the ego is broken, either going to paradise or hell, and so people of hell will not have an ego since they are subdued. God will become manifest.

The Angels were created to be sincere to God, but began to become of full of themselves, so God created Adam (a) as a means of removing vanity from them.

All passed except Iblis who was an improbable anomaly.

Adam (a) the elite was supposed to show the way to resist Iblis, but when he fell, the world of trial had to be created to distinguish us from now on since consequences of sin in paradise became known.

The generations leading to Noah (a) were supposed to follow the chosen leaders from God but instead of God's guidance, resorted to their own leaders who took the position of the name of God which is the position of Adam (a) all the way to the Mahdi (a), to be held only by God's chosen image and spirit from him.

God could've made it that Adam (a) is a greater type Angelic creature, who they would be amazed by his features but chosen to create humans as a trial so that worship of God could have meaning. If Angels (a) didn't become prideful and self-adoration maybe material world would not come about nor humans.

And if Iblis didn't disobey, and it was an easy trial, perhaps this world would not come about. And If Adam (a) did what was expected of him, then this trial would not come about.

When Iblis rebelled, a cursed descended on his knowledge, and even the highest signs don't link him to God anymore. He fears the God of the Prophets (a) but sees him as a Jinn that is more powerful then all.

This type of disbelief was seen in Pharaoh when he rebelled and said let me look at the the god of Moses (a) and sought to say he can overcome the God of Moses (a) - instead of acknowledging the signs which deep down inside was sure it was from God deceived himself.

Satan fears God in the same way Pharaoh feared God of Moses (a) but they both don't believe in him as the absolute being that is worthy of worship.

anna. said:

Thread title question, plus a followup question:

1. If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was rebellion possible?
2. If it was possible for Satan and his angels to be thrown out of heaven, how are those in heaven assured their place is permanent?

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It was possible, because God has given freedom and because some just love more evil than good. I think also nowadays the number of people who love more evil and imperfection than good is big.

The place can be permanent, even if the population in there is not permanent.

1213 said:

It was possible, because God has given freedom and because some just love more evil than good. I think also nowadays the number of people who love more evil and imperfection than good is big.

The place can be permanent, even if the population in there is not permanent.

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I've never, in my entire life, ever heard any priest or minister give even a hint of a whisper that once you got to heaven, it was possible to get kicked out of it.

anna. said:

I've never, in my entire life, ever heard any priest or minister give even a hint of a whisper that once you got to heaven, it was possible to get kicked out of it.

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Heaven pre-judgment day is different then heaven post judgment day.

Link said:

Heaven pre-judgment day is different then heaven post judgment day.

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Why?

Does perfection negate free will?

I wouldn't think so.

anna. said:

Why?

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The post is a reward and builds on seeds laid out. The before is a trial.

anna. said:

Thread title question, plus a followup question:

1. If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was rebellion possible?
2. If it was possible for Satan and his angels to be thrown out of heaven, how are those in heaven assured their place is permanent?

Revelation 12:7-9​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

​

2 Peter 2:4​

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;​

​

Ezekiel 28:13-19​

You were in Eden, the garden of God;​

Every precious stone was your covering:​

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,​

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,​

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.​

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes​

Was prepared for you on the day you were created.​

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;​

I established you;​

You were on the holy mountain of God;​

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.​

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,​

Till iniquity was found in you.​

16 “By the abundance of your trading​

You became filled with violence within,​

And you sinned;​

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing​

Out of the mountain of God;​

And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,​

From the midst of the fiery stones.​

17 “Your heart was [a]lifted up because of your beauty;​

You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;​

I cast you to the ground,​

I laid you before kings,​

That they might gaze at you.​

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries​

By the multitude of your iniquities,​

By the iniquity of your trading;​

Therefore I brought fire from your midst;​

It devoured you,​

And I turned you to ashes upon the earth​

In the sight of all who saw you.​

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;​

You have become a horror,​

And shall be no more forever.” ​

​

Isaiah 14:12-15​

“How you are fallen from heaven,​

O Lucifer, son of the morning!​

How you are cut down to the ground,​

You who weakened the nations!​

13 For you have said in your heart:​

‘I will ascend into heaven,​

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;​

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation​

On the farthest sides of the north;​

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,​

I will be like the Most High.’​

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,​

To the lowest depths of the Pit.​

​

​

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It would be a pretty boring story without some villains.

anna. said:

I've never, in my entire life, ever heard any priest or minister give even a hint of a whisper that once you got to heaven, it was possible to get kicked out of it.

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Obviously the angels are a different case, because they were already there. If people get there, they are righteous and I don't think they would do anything that would lead to exit. However, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think people would not be kicked out the same way as angels, if they become evil like the angels.

anna. said:

I've never, in my entire life, ever heard any priest or minister give even a hint of a whisper that once you got to heaven, it was possible to get kicked out of it.

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Maybe there was a lost book about it somewhere.

Twilight Hue said:

Maybe there was a lost book about it somewhere.

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Enoch?

This whole 'rebellion in the heavens' story sounds like the myths about the wars between the primordial Titans and their offspring, the demigods.

There are similar stories in other cultures the predate the Greeks.

Seems like there is a lot of borrowing of these stories and adaptation of them to other cultures. Not surprised that Judaism did something similar.

Okay, so according to Job (I read Job a long time ago and didn't remember this): apparently Satan could move back and forth between earth and heaven? How is that even a thing?!
And Christians debate whether God still allows it?

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD, 'From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.'
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.'
9 Does Job fear God for nothing?' Satan replied.
10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.'
12 The LORD said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.' Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

1213 said:

Obviously the angels are a different case, because they were already there. If people get there, they are righteous and I don't think they would do anything that would lead to exit. However, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think people would not be kicked out the same way as angels, if they become evil like the angels.

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Why strive for an eternal reward that might not be eternal?

Wandering Monk said:

This whole 'rebellion in the heavens' story sounds like the myths about the wars between the primordial Titans and their offspring, the demigods.

There are similar stories in other cultures the predate the Greeks.

Seems like there is a lot of borrowing of these stories and adaptation of them to other cultures. Not surprised that Judaism did something similar.

Click to expand...

I believe Greeks copied from Jews. Although it is possible that all nations witnessed the same things, but have a slightly different knowledge about the matters. It is interesting that all of the stories have certain common ideas, which makes them more believable, even if they would not the whole truth.

anna. said:

Thread title question, plus a followup question:

1. If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was rebellion possible?
2. If it was possible for Satan and his angels to be thrown out of heaven, how are those in heaven assured their place is permanent?

Revelation 12:7-9​

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

​

2 Peter 2:4​

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;​

​

Ezekiel 28:13-19​

You were in Eden, the garden of God;​

Every precious stone was your covering:​

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,​

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,​

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.​

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes​

Was prepared for you on the day you were created.​

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;​

I established you;​

You were on the holy mountain of God;​

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.​

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,​

Till iniquity was found in you.​

16 “By the abundance of your trading​

You became filled with violence within,​

And you sinned;​

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing​

Out of the mountain of God;​

And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,​

From the midst of the fiery stones.​

17 “Your heart was [a]lifted up because of your beauty;​

You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;​

I cast you to the ground,​

I laid you before kings,​

That they might gaze at you.​

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries​

By the multitude of your iniquities,​

By the iniquity of your trading;​

Therefore I brought fire from your midst;​

It devoured you,​

And I turned you to ashes upon the earth​

In the sight of all who saw you.​

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;​

You have become a horror,​

And shall be no more forever.” ​

​

Isaiah 14:12-15​

“How you are fallen from heaven,​

O Lucifer, son of the morning!​

How you are cut down to the ground,​

You who weakened the nations!​

13 For you have said in your heart:​

‘I will ascend into heaven,​

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;​

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation​

On the farthest sides of the north;​

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,​

I will be like the Most High.’​

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,​

To the lowest depths of the Pit.​

​

​

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I wonder...
Whose conception of perfection are you using?
And why that particular conception?

McBell said:

I wonder...
Whose conception of perfection are you using?
And why that particular conception?

Click to expand...

Biblical: eternal joy (Psalm 16:11), an everlasting kingdom (Daniel 7:14) without death, mourning, crying or pain (Rev. 21:4). Because that's what I've been taught from childhood. Everything made new, in the perfect presence of God. But most of all that once you're there, it's forever. And hell is forever too. Which is what scares a lot of believers into believing.

anna. said:

Revelation 12:7-97 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

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The juxtaposition of a verse in Revelation against a verse in 1Peter causes a bit of confusion. If you include more verses from chapter 12 of revelation then it can be seen that Michael and his angels are redescribed in verse 10 and 11 as the brothers and sisters of Jesus who triumph through: the word of their testimony, not loving their own lives (even unto death), and "The blood of the lamb." The name 'Michael' could be a weird transliteration of 'Like God' since it sounds like 'Like el'.

Who is it that fights with these brothers and sisters? It is the world. The scepter is iron, because it is an unwavering standard and timeless.

anna. said:

2 Peter 2:44 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

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A quote from 2 Peter about those who were dragged away by the Syrians and by the Babylonians to live in darkness. Few returned.

anna. said:

Ezekiel 28:13-19You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.

Click to expand...

Verse 2 says "Son of Man say this to the ruler of Tyre." Tyre is a country, and its king is being described by Ezekiel. "You were the garden of God..." Could it be that its not actually about the king of Tyre? Maybe, depending upon when it is written. The king of Tyre could be a stand in for someone else such as any king, any country or any bad leader. Could be. A recurring theme is that the nations are like grass that withers away, impermanent rather than permanent. This stands in stark contrast to how people wish things to be: permanent, stable, consistent.