New here but feels like a debate

Spice said:

I think I lean towards Judaism on this one...the World to come. More distinction than this from the Jewish perspective, I don't recall, but I also don't believe it matters to me.

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What is the Jewish perspective on the World to come?

Trailblazer said:

What is the Jewish perspective on the World to come?

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I'm not clear on it, but if I recall correctly from my forum conversations years ago, they don't speak of heaven and hell as a destination, but just as someone headed for the world to come -- or not. Here's a link to more in depth reading that hopefully I'll get to by and by.

Revoltingest said:

Libertarianism doesn't appear to be a philosophy
that ever fully arises in any country. All I hope for
is that USA head more in that direction, eg, strong
civil rights.

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Hey again,

You know I think you are awesome. We don't agree often but when we do I love the way you word responses. While I think I get the general tenets of libertarianism and already did the super annoying thing of asking about countries run by their ideas I don't have any issue with you or what you believe I just want to know is that good or bad?

Whether moving towards libertarian principles is perceived as good or bad can vary depending on one's perspective and values.

Advocates of libertarianism argue that it promotes personal freedom, individual responsibility, and limited government intervention, which they see as positive attributes leading to greater prosperity, innovation, and personal fulfillment. They believe that reducing government control allows individuals to make their own choices, leading to a more efficient and just society. (Have you met people?)

On the other hand, critics may argue that strict adherence to libertarian principles could lead to issues such as inequality, lack of social safety nets, and insufficient regulation to protect against exploitation and harm. They may advocate for a more interventionist approach by the government to address social injustices and ensure the well-being of all citizens.

What is wrong with government in general? Can't we have a fair arbiter we all vote for as a society to make sure the bad guys are not being too bad and the good guys are getting props?

Is Libertarianism seen as good or bad depends on one's values, priorities, and beliefs about the role of government in society and you might be older than me. (Doubtful but who knows) I do remember some things mate. Honestly, I am not holding this against you but curious about what I might be missing.

I have a few libertarian relatives I will be visiting soon so not just calling you out.

I hope all is well.

SeekingBalance said:

Hey again,

You know I think you are awesome.

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I have a high opinion of myself too.
(My IQ is almost 70.)

SeekingBalance said:

We don't agree often but when we do I love the way you word responses. While I think I get the general tenets of libertarianism and already did the super annoying thing of asking about countries run by their ideas I don't have any issue with you or what you believe I just want to know is that good or bad?

Click to expand...

Liberal or conservative, we libertarians
can generally find common ground on
some issue.

SeekingBalance said:

Whether moving towards libertarian principles is perceived as good or bad can vary depending on one's perspective and values.

Advocates of libertarianism argue that it promotes personal freedom, individual responsibility, and limited government intervention, which they see as positive attributes leading to greater prosperity, innovation, and personal fulfillment. They believe that reducing government control allows individuals to make their own choices, leading to a more efficient and just society. (Have you met people?)

Click to expand...

Yes, I've met some people.

SeekingBalance said:

On the other hand, critics may argue that strict adherence to libertarian principles could lead to issues such as inequality, lack of social safety nets, and insufficient regulation to protect against exploitation and harm. They may advocate for a more interventionist approach by the government to address social injustices and ensure the well-being of all citizens.

Click to expand...

Libertarians are diverse.
We don't all oppose social safety nets, hence
my being a "pragmatic" one. I favor them
not out of a sense of justice, but rather
necessary political stability & peace,
ie, to maximize the libertarian orientation
means avoiding non-viable doctrinaire agendas.

SeekingBalance said:

What is wrong with government in general?

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It tends to expand power over us
beyond what is optimum for
liberty, civil rights, & prosperity.

SeekingBalance said:

Can't we have a fair arbiter we all vote for as a society to make sure the bad guys are not being too bad and the good guys are getting props?

Click to expand...

I don't believe in "fair".
Only in "fair as practical", ie, "fair"
is a goal...a direction of progress.

SeekingBalance said:

Is Libertarianism seen as good or bad depends on one's values, priorities, and beliefs about the role of government in society and you might be older than me.

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Might be older than you?
Likely. I'm 70.

SeekingBalance said:

(Doubtful but who knows) I do remember some things mate. Honestly, I am not holding this against you but curious about what I might be missing.

I have a few libertarian relatives I will be visiting soon so not just calling you out.

I hope all is well.

Click to expand...

We be good.

Revoltingest said:

I have a high opinion of myself too.
(My IQ is almost 70.)

Liberal or conservative, we libertarians
can generally find common ground on
some issue.

Yes, I've met some people.

Libertarians are diverse.
We don't all oppose social safety nets, hence
my being a "pragmatic" one. I favor them
not out of a sense of justice, but rather
necessary political stability & peace,
ie, to maximize the libertarian orientation
means avoiding non-viable doctrinaire agendas.

It tends to expand power over us
beyond what is optimum for
liberty, civil rights, & prosperity.

I don't believe in "fair".
Only in "fair as practical", ie, "fair"
is a goal...a direction of progress.

Might be older than you?
Likely. I'm 70.

We be good.

Click to expand...

Hi Revoltingest,

Your IQ and your age are the same? That is crazy. I don't think you give yourself enough credit in the IQ department and might be overestimating the age department but if accurate you got me beat by a fair bit. (A decade or so) I am also for social nets but the way our society is set up right now it seems a bit crazy.

On one hand, I get you distrust the government but who has more power in our current world? Is it Trillion dollar companies that span multiple countries or is it the government that doesn't even know how to ask Mark Zuckerberg a semi-sensible question at times? I see you staring down the government but I wonder if we're staring down the wrong threats? I'm an American so I like the freedom to come here and just chit-chat with you about whatever and I'm not going to get dropped off a building tomorrow.

If you think your rights should not infringe on others then how are billionaires regularly doing that all day long because their wealth allows for this treatment of others?

Or the simulation argument... sure it's like a nice thing to ponder for us but look at North Korea. Their government is enslaving them and making them live in a simulated world of their design and you can not like the US government but it's not Putin or North Korea level IMHO.

Just arguing with myself perhaps to read Limitarianism. I listened to an interview in the last week or so and have had this circling in my mind but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. In any event probably why I went on this tangent.

I do see some governments that try to extend power over their people but I think in America we are allowed a lot of freedoms we wouldn't have if born in other countries. The fly in the ointment doesn't seem to be the government but more extremist views and the results of having these freedoms combined with the giant wealth gap. (Tech is going to exasperate this problem with AI and Bots shortly, IMHO. So yes I see a government problem but I like having a government that might be able to figure it out for our society as a whole)

I hope all is well!

SeekingBalance said:

Hi Revoltingest,

Your IQ and your age are the same? That is crazy. I don't think you give yourself enough credit in the IQ department and might be overestimating the age department but if accurate you got me beat by a fair bit. (A decade or so) I am also for social nets but the way our society is set up right now it seems a bit crazy.

Click to expand...

My IQ is calculated based upon a friend's result.
Actually, I'm only 70 on a very good day. He
scored 70, & he is smarter than I am

SeekingBalance said:

On one hand, I get you distrust the government but who has more power in our current world? Is it Trillion dollar companies that span multiple countries or is it the government that doesn't even know how to ask Mark Zuckerberg a semi-sensible question at times? I see you staring down the government but I wonder if we're staring down the wrong threats? I'm an American so I like the freedom to come here and just chit-chat with you about whatever and I'm not going to get dropped off a building tomorrow.

Click to expand...

My beef is with government far far more than businesses.
Governments wield much greater power over us, eg,
the ability to commit genocide.

SeekingBalance said:

If you think your rights should not infringe on others then how are billionaires regularly doing that all day long because their wealth allows for this treatment of others?

Click to expand...

What rights to you see them infringing upon?

SeekingBalance said:

Or the simulation argument... sure it's like a nice thing to ponder for us but look at North Korea. Their government is enslaving them and making them live in a simulated world of their design and you can not like the US government but it's not Putin or North Korea level IMHO.

Click to expand...

Simulation argument?

SeekingBalance said:

Just arguing with myself perhaps to read Limitarianism. I listened to an interview in the last week or so and have had this circling in my mind but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. In any event probably why I went on this tangent.

I do see some governments that try to extend power over their people but I think in America we are allowed a lot of freedoms we wouldn't have if born in other countries.

Click to expand...

Things could be better here.
Many suffer greatly at the
hands of government.

SeekingBalance said:

The fly in the ointment doesn't seem to be the government but more extremist views and the results of having these freedoms combined with the giant wealth gap. (Tech is going to exasperate this problem with AI and Bots shortly, IMHO. So yes I see a government problem but I like having a government that might be able to figure it out for our society as a whole)

Click to expand...

The wealth gap pales in comparison to murderous
cops, corrupt prosecutors, incompetent judges,
& avaricious tax collectors who use our money
to commit genocide.

SeekingBalance said:

I hope all is well!

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Things are fine as frog's hair.

Revoltingest said:

My IQ is calculated based upon a friend's result.
Actually, I'm only 70 on a very good day. He
scored 70, & he is smarter than I am

My beef is with government far far more than businesses.
Governments wield much greater power over us, eg,
the ability to commit genocide.


What rights to you see them infringing upon?

Simulation argument?

Things could be better here.
Many suffer greatly at the
hands of government.

The wealth gap pales in comparison to murderous
cops, corrupt prosecutors, incompetent judges,
& avaricious tax collectors who use our money
to commit genocide.

Things are fine as frog's hair.

Click to expand...

Hi Revoltingest,

In modern times, the government is heavily influenced by lobbyists, donations, and "think groups". Many but not all want to get re-elected and to do so will cost money and they will take that where they can find it. When money was allowed into politics things changed for the worse.

In short, there are billions of dollars floating around in a lake that holds like a few hundred million historically, and the people paying that money for their Super Pacs, Lobbyists, Think Groups are not your government. The Lincoln group puts out videos that require lots of money but are not part of the government. (They just have an opinion and advertise a lot)

I'm not trying to change your mind but Billionaires seem to be able to move a bit faster than our government. I know there are bad cops but I think statistics would show most cops are not murderous (If you compare civilian murder versus police murder and also consider cops will probably have body cams, witnesses, etc), incompetent judges I'm with you but I wonder how that happens?

I know no one likes taxes but happy to pay my fair share if it helps my fellow citizens. Hopefully, we're not committing any genocides but perhaps this is about Gaza? If so don't want to start a new debate but yeah that is a touchy subject as of late with well-deserved consideration.

You updated your signature. Was going to respond earlier but running around. I hope all is well!

SeekingBalance said:

In modern times, the government is heavily influenced by lobbyists, donations, and "think groups". Many but not all want to get re-elected and to do so will cost money and they will take that where they can find it. When money was allowed into politics things changed for the worse.

Click to expand...

Is it really worse? When was money not involved?
There have always been mechanisms to determine
who could run for office, & influence voters for votes.
Without money to place ads, they'd have to use other
means, eg, control newspapers, control politicians,
control government already. And of course, a
wealthy candidate could always use their own money.

SeekingBalance said:

In short, there are billions of dollars floating around in a lake that holds like a few hundred million historically, and the people paying that money for their Super Pacs, Lobbyists, Think Groups are not your government. The Lincoln group puts out videos that require lots of money but are not part of the government. (They just have an opinion and advertise a lot)

I'm not trying to change your mind but Billionaires seem to be able to move a bit faster than our government. I know there are bad cops but I think statistics would show most cops are not murderous (If you compare civilian murder versus police murder and also consider cops will probably have body cams, witnesses, etc), incompetent judges I'm with you but I wonder how that happens?

I know no one likes taxes but happy to pay my fair share if it helps my fellow citizens. Hopefully, we're not committing any genocides but perhaps this is about Gaza? If so don't want to start a new debate but yeah that is a touchy subject as of late with well-deserved consideration.

You updated your signature. Was going to respond earlier but running around. I hope all is well!

Click to expand...

Fine as frog's hair.

Revoltingest said:

Is it really worse? When was money not involved?
There have always been mechanisms to determine
who could run for office, & influence voters for votes.
Without money to place ads, they'd have to use other
means, eg, control newspapers, control politicians,
control government already. And of course, a
wealthy candidate could always use their own money.

Fine as frog's hair.

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Hi Revoltingest,

I think they bought all the news companies and newspapers. Who owns CNN or Fox? Lobbyists are people who get paid on average around half a million dollars a year to hang out in Washington and hang out with politicians. I get the politicians are overpaid but the amount of money the upper class is exerting on the middle and lower classes is hard to ignore.

I hope all is well.

SeekingBalance said:

Hi Revoltingest,

I think they bought all the news companies and newspapers. Who owns CNN or Fox? Lobbyists are people who get paid on average around half a million dollars a year to hang out in Washington and hang out with politicians. I get the politicians are overpaid but the amount of money the upper class is exerting on the middle and lower classes is hard to ignore.

I hope all is well.

Click to expand...

Yes, there are problems with undue influence.
But money is only one of them. We have politicians
giving themselves franking privileges. Media picking
sides to boost their favored candidates, & even
creating echo chambers.
What alternative to allowing candidates to spend
money has shown better results?

Revoltingest said:

Yes, there are problems with undue influence.
But money is only one of them. We have politicians
giving themselves franking privileges. Media picking
sides to boost their favored candidates, & even
creating echo chambers.
What alternative to allowing candidates to spend
money has shown better results?

Click to expand...

Hi Revoltingest,

You say a lot in a little but thanks for acknowledging some of the concerns with undue influence however you are right as well. Partisan Media, Abuse of Political Privileges I heard some rumors about the Supreme Court, and yes echo chambers are a huge problem. The amount of money flowing into DC is causing a new breed of politicians to emerge who care little about governing and more about acting. (IMHO)

I don't have a lot of answers, fixing money in politics is not my expertise but maybe some more limits on lobbying expenditures. There has been a lot of news about Hunter Biden being a drug addict but Jared Kushner got close to two or three billion dollars from Saudi Arabia while in office. (That is a lot of money and Kushner maintains it was legitimate private business but was it?)

I would like to get rid of dark money so we can see who is paying for the ads and the people running. Transparency of funding is usually critical. There is also media monopolization. (I know the US is going after Apple but what about the news that will elect your next president?)

I don't think we're super far away in our views I am just getting used to articulating my view in text format so bear with me.

Thanks and I hope all is well!

SeekingBalance said:

Hi Revoltingest,

You say a lot in a little but thanks for acknowledging some of the concerns with undue influence however you are right as well. Partisan Media, Abuse of Political Privileges I heard some rumors about the Supreme Court, and yes echo chambers are a huge problem. The amount of money flowing into DC is causing a new breed of politicians to emerge who care little about governing and more about acting. (IMHO)

I don't have a lot of answers, fixing money in politics is not my expertise but maybe some more limits on lobbying expenditures. There has been a lot of news about Hunter Biden being a drug addict but Jared Kushner got close to two or three billion dollars from Saudi Arabia while in office. (That is a lot of money and Kushner maintains it was legitimate private business but was it?)

I would like to get rid of dark money so we can see who is paying for the ads and the people running. Transparency of funding is usually critical. There is also media monopolization. (I know the US is going after Apple but what about the news that will elect your next president?)

I don't think we're super far away in our views I am just getting used to articulating my view in text format so bear with me.

Thanks and I hope all is well!

Click to expand...

One solution I favor is entrapment of public
officials, ie, they should be tempted with
bribes, & prosecuted when caught.
This is unconstitutional regarding ordinary
citizens, but the door has been opened for
licensed professionals, who are subject
to "testers". Public officials should consent
to this as a condition of being in office.

Trailblazer said:

I do not believe that the New Jerusalem is in Heaven. I believe it is on Earth, now.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

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I believe you are correct, a I said it is not in Heaven; it is in heaven.

I believe I have not seen a city 1,500 miles long on earth so what are you referring to?

Trailblazer said:

They have no plan, they just believe. I am not a big planner myself but at least the Baha'is have a plan for the New Earth, lol.

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I believe God's plan will be in play. There will be no new births.

Muffled said:

I believe I have not seen a city 1,500 miles long on earth so what are you referring to?

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I am referring to the City of God, which is the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation.

In the context of the following passage, the City of God is the Revelation of God vouchsafed from God to humanity.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

Muffled said:

I believe God's plan will be in play. There will be no new births.

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I believe God's plan will be in play. New births and deaths will continue just as they always have existed on earth.

Revoltingest said:

One solution I favor is entrapment of public
officials, ie, they should be tempted with
bribes, & prosecuted when caught.
This is unconstitutional regarding ordinary
citizens, but the door has been opened for
licensed professionals, who are subject
to "testers". Public officials should consent
to this as a condition of being in office.

Click to expand...

Hi Revoltingest,

I don't know the answer. I prefer a bunch of people thinking about and actively managing society to not doing that. (Like anarchy etc) However, the people in charge matter a lot. Compare say China, US, or Japan with North Korea. Very different.

I'm glad I got to be a US citizen. I'm happy I was Baptist, Catholic, and Jehovah's Witness, and handed out the awake and watch tower. I'm glad I was an atheist and whatever it is I am today. I'm glad we can have this conversation.

I hope all is well.

SeekingBalance said:

Hi Revoltingest,

I don't know the answer. I prefer a bunch of people thinking about and actively managing society to not doing that.

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SeekingBalance said:

(Like anarchy etc)

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Anarchy wouldn't have anyone in charge, would it?

SeekingBalance said:

However, the people in charge matter a lot. Compare say China, US, or Japan with North Korea. Very different.

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Corruption lurks there too.

SeekingBalance said:

I'm glad I got to be a US citizen. I'm happy I was Baptist, Catholic, and Jehovah's Witness, and handed out the awake and watch tower. I'm glad I was an atheist and whatever it is I am today. I'm glad we can have this conversation.

I hope all is well.

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All is well here in Revoltistan.

SeekingBalance said:

When I say I'm new I grew up very religious. Door-to-door religious and skeptical of what I was preaching but most of my time was spent either in school or in church with a slightly less amount of time dedicated to sleeping.

I know now that this religion you could all guess if I told you it wasn't Mormon but is based on older stories and somewhat related but similar to some chiropractic ideas except they don't accept blood transfusions.

Raising kids in this manner while not quite Jesus Camp level abuse and I won't speak for everyone I grew up with because they would disagree perhaps. I forgot the podcast I listened to recently but I think it was about Feynman and someone said kids ask religious questions which we don't have answers to so we choose to lie to them. Not because we are evil people that want to lie but we don't know and when we don't know we often get uncomfortable. So lets say your not religious but you might give some sperm and egg or birds and the bees but ultimately the kid is asking why am I here? You are answering HOW they got here but they want to know WHY. Its a hard question to answer but since I'm new I'll toss it out to you the reader. I hope all is well.

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To lie is not smart
Speaking truth is usually best

If I don't know, I just say so
If needed I remain silent

Trailblazer said:

I am referring to the City of God, which is the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation.

In the context of the following passage, the City of God is the Revelation of God vouchsafed from God to humanity.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

Click to expand...

So, I believe you think of the City of God as your own fantasy.