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Did You Choose Your Truth?

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Link said:
I agree with you but you have to show where his reasoning fails. Why does witnessing unconditional love and witnessing one’s actions not lead to potential improvement over many times.
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It may lead to potential improvement over many times even if only repeated in this life, (I mean, even if there is no reincarnation), but my point was that repeated experiences will not necessarily lead to better choices the next time around.

Even it these people improve over time and no longer make bad choices, we still need punishments for people who are still making bad choices, people who commit crimes. @Bird123 is against any punishments and that is unrealistic. Unconditional love is not going to change evil people. It it will only make them worse because they will believe their behavior is acceptable. God does not find that behavior acceptable so why should we?
Link said:
I see it that once the soul is corrupted with lying nature it becomes increasingly difficult to cure. That knowledge is not the problem. Of course God could’ve set it up that there be no evil in the first place too. Some souls can reform but it’s unlikely if one was untruthful to promise to God on a clean slate to be truthful the next time around.
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I agree. There is no reason to believe that soul would change the next time around, if there is a next time around.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Link said:
@Bird123 is a very patient poster at putting his views. I don't agree with him but I don't think it's fair to say he provided no reason.

He sees it that when souls see actions + unconditional love, it sets up that they try to reform and gets things better the next time.

I think there is problems with this view, but to be fair, he has set up reasoning.
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When one understands all sides, Will not Intelligence make the best choices? Math!! Given enough lessons, one can learn anything.

Isn't that better than hating and frying the kids? I would say so.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
The Baha'i Faith focus is also on Fixing the problem and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah!
The problem is that the prevailing order in the world is lamentably defective.

“How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 216

The focus of the Baha'i Faith not on punishment, which is only something that is sometimes necessary to obtain justice and protect society.

No, that is not what I am saying. Fixing thins and helping others is the focus of the Baha'i Faith.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

Messengers of God know everything but they do not reveal everything that they know. Their purpose is to educate mankind on spiritual matters, so they teach us about God and they teach us how to live together in love and harmony, not to weigh in on matters that are for scientists to address.
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your quote: The problem is that the prevailing order in the world is lamentably defective.
My Answer: This is where you are wrong!! There is order to chaos!!

People desire for peace and goodness is the driving force that will keep people moving forward. On the other hand, this peace and goodness will only happen when all the lessons are learned.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bird123 said:
your quote: The problem is that the prevailing order in the world is lamentably defective.
My Answer: This is where you are wrong!! There is order to chaos!!
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That is only your personal opinion, not a fact. We all see things differently.
Bird123 said:
People desire for peace and goodness is the driving force that will keep people moving forward.
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Not everyone has those desires.
Bird123 said:
On the other hand, this peace and goodness will only happen when all the lessons are learned.
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That will not happen with everyone. Some people never learn their lessons.

Since you are such an optimist, I think you should look at this thread:

The only solution is to love all mankind

Today humanity is beset with many strifes, conflicts and wars and I believe that the only solution to ending these conflicts over time is for all people to be educated in the home, school, university and workplace to love all humanity unconditionally. It will take time but it is the only...
www.religiousforums.com
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
That is only your personal opinion, not a fact. We all see things differently.

Not everyone has those desires.

That will not happen with everyone. Some people never learn their lessons.

Since you are such an optimist, I think you should look at this thread:

The only solution is to love all mankind

Today humanity is beset with many strifes, conflicts and wars and I believe that the only solution to ending these conflicts over time is for all people to be educated in the home, school, university and workplace to love all humanity unconditionally. It will take time but it is the only...
www.religiousforums.com
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Love mankind is pointing in the right direction!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bird123 said:
From your point of view since you have not Discovered the Truth for yourself, you can only say I have beliefs.

That's what I say. It's very clear!!
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That is all you have, beliefs.
You believe you have Discovered the Truth.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bird123 said:
When one understands all sides, Will not Intelligence make the best choices? Math!! Given enough lessons, one can learn anything.

Isn't that better than hating and frying the kids? I would say so.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
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As I said I don't think understanding is the problem.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Link said:
As I said I don't think understanding is the problem.
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Curious? What makes you say that? Sure, people can be selfish, greedy, heartless, hateful, manipulating, intimidating, coercing, angry, wrathful,revengeful, blaming, condemning, ruling and controlling, however how could they really understand all sides if they never lived the receiving sides along with experiencing how one's loved ones can be hurt? Sometimes one must Live it to see it.

Have you ever made a choice and said to yourself: I should have chose differently?

In a multilevel classroom, some have learned lessons others have not. Couple that with independently different views and can one really assume what others really know or even have a clue about?

Do people see the simple view? In reality, aren't the dynamics and diversity of so many independent thinking views creating variables beyond comprehension? Isn't God at such a Higher Level of Intelligence and capabilities to work all the different interactions in such a way that everyone moves forward however so slowly toward that Higher Level? This is the level of Intelligence I have interacted with.

I have found no matter how much I have Discovered that there is much more to learn and Discover. In reality, it is going to be a very long time before I see all the interactions and variable possible. On the other hand, I am a hungry student.

That's what I see ( BELIEVE/FEEL/THINK Language). It's very clear!!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bird123 said:
I realize language can be a tricky thing. Is anyone it's master? Surely not I. Can one create a Heavenly state for oneself and others blaming,judging, condemning, punishing, anger,wrath, payback, revenge, controlling, intimidating, manipulating, threatening,hate or we against they? It doesn't sound like Heaven for anyone to me. If these things were not around, would not the possibilities be endless??

That's what I see (BELIEVE/FEEL/THINK Language) It's very clear!!
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I never suggested that one creates a Heavenly state for oneself and others by blaming, judging, condemning, punishing, anger, wrath, payback, revenge, controlling, intimidating, manipulating, threatening, hate.

I only ever suggested that punishment is necessary in order to achieve justice and protect society.

If punishment for crimes did not exist, the world would be unsafe, unjust, and completely chaotic.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bird123 said:
Curious? What makes you say that? Sure, people can be selfish, greedy, heartless, hateful, manipulating, intimidating, coercing, angry, wrathful,revengeful, blaming, condemning, ruling and controlling, however how could they really understand all sides if they never lived the receiving sides along with experiencing how one's loved ones can be hurt? Sometimes one must Live it to see it.

Have you ever made a choice and said to yourself: I should have chose differently?

In a multilevel classroom, some have learned lessons others have not. Couple that with independently different views and can one really assume what others really know or even have a clue about?

Do people see the simple view? In reality, aren't the dynamics and diversity of so many independent thinking views creating variables beyond comprehension? Isn't God at such a Higher Level of Intelligence and capabilities to work all the different interactions in such a way that everyone moves forward however so slowly toward that Higher Level? This is the level of Intelligence I have interacted with.

I have found no matter how much I have Discovered that there is much more to learn and Discover. In reality, it is going to be a very long time before I see all the interactions and variable possible. On the other hand, I am a hungry student.

That's what I see ( BELIEVE/FEEL/THINK Language). It's very clear!!
Click to expand...
The problem as I see it is evil people see themselves as good through deception. The few people who hate themselves and are criminals are a minority. Most people who are evil think they are the good guys.

This deception of lying to oneself is not easily awakened from. I think dying and come back with this deceiving lying nature will make one more prone to lie and deceive oneself.

But this all theory, in reality, people are born on a clean slate and choose.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I never suggested that one creates a Heavenly state for oneself and others by blaming, judging, condemning, punishing, anger, wrath, payback, revenge, controlling, intimidating, manipulating, threatening, hate.

I only ever suggested that punishment is necessary in order to achieve justice and protect society.

If punishment for crimes did not exist, the world would be unsafe, unjust, and completely chaotic.
Click to expand...
I know you were not suggesting anything. That has never been the point. You know me. The only thing that matters is what is. Saying everything just right can be a challenge.

Should not one keep one's eyes on the prize, the Heavenly state?

God is very very smart. I find copying God tends to lead in a very good direction. Don't you think mankind has a long way to go before their problem is solved? Perhaps there are better ways to solving the problem than mere punishment.

You are right in that mankind must protect themselves, however so much more could be done that could really lead to Understanding how to solve the problem other than payback. In time, mankind will do the work necessary to advance forward. Even with baby steps, given enough time, one can walk across a world.

That's what I see (/Believe/Feel/Think language). It's very clear!!
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Link said:
The problem as I see it is evil people see themselves as good through deception. The few people who hate themselves and are criminals are a minority. Most people who are evil think they are the good guys.

This deception of lying to oneself is not easily awakened from. I think dying and come back with this deceiving lying nature will make one more prone to lie and deceive oneself.

But this all theory, in reality, people are born on a clean slate and choose.
Click to expand...
People are born with a clean slate so to speak. People take hurt and adversity personally. The slate must be cleaned or learning would be impossible. Each will experience God's Unconditional Love that feels so good and is so complete that it heals all hurt.

You are right. People are who they are. Their hurt might be healed, however they are basically still the same. This is when the next lesson begins. Living lessons change people even if it is so very small. God can place so many variables such as people who think murder is right have the one they loved most murdered. In time, the Light will get in.

Like I said before, God is multi-angular in so many ways. There are souls who volunteer to go through Great adversity in order that others might Learn, Grow, Understand, and See. Look around you. Perhaps, you might spot a few.

God hides nothing. So often one chooses what one wants to see rather than what is.

One can lie all one wants, however at some point Truth will come to the surface!!


That's what I see (Believe/Feel/Think Language). It's very clear!!
 
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