Works of Righteousness

Terrywoodenpic said:

I can see little point in discussing this, when you demonstrate that you are unable to understand the meaning of simple scripture.

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yes, this is simple scripture, why can't YOU understand it?


I can't help if you repeat the party line of what some " think" the scripture means.

Katzpur said:

Then how do you explain the behavior of the "Christians" who are constantly telling me I'm going to burn in hell? What change has there been in them since they accepted Christ?

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It could be a number things. One, they are not saved. Two, they are obeying the flesh and not the spirit: in this case God may rebuke the sinner in order to bring them back onto the correct path yet at judgement day will not remember their sin because they were committed in the flesh and the works of the flesh are dead. Three, they just may be ignorant and forget that the sole criteria for heavenly admission first comes with the belief and acceptance of Christ: many churches teach that only their way is the correct way and are intolerant of others who profess Christ because they don't like their practice, rites, or additional teachings.

Paul teaches that there is a war in our members between the flesh and it's fruit and the spirit and it's fruit. This is often, I suppose, why Christians can seem to do good one day and awful the next. look at many great figures in scripture, usually after their greatest triumphs in the Lord's work, you find them deep in sin shortly afterwards. An example would be the drunkenness of Noah right after the salvation of man from the flood.

writer said:

32 You made references to what was happening in these verses without any collaborating scripture to prove your point.
To the contrary, post 11 lists: Jn 5:29; 1 Cor 15:22-23; Rev 20; 2 Cor 5:10 corroborating Mt 25:12, 19-30; for the proposition that God has more than one judgment; and will judge His people separately.
There's another verse in Peter that "judgment begins at the house of God"

You made reference to the millenium without any justification.
To the contrary:
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. And when the thousand years were completed...And I saw a great white throne...And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened," Rv 20:6, 11-12 ties directly into the two resurrections in John 5. Also in post 11.
And related to Matthew 24-25, because that's when the millenium begins. With Jesus Christ's return. Which is the whole subject of 24-25.
"And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?"
24:3

Where is the references to back any discussion of Armegeddon and establishing a time frame for the various judgement Christ passes?
Revelation 20. John 5:29. 1 Corinthians 15:23. Matthew 25:1-30 preceding 25:31-46.
And here: Mt 24:3 "What will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?" (cf 6, 13-15, 19, 21-22, 28 for Armageddon specifically, 30, 32-34, 36, 42, 44

You also made a reference to before Christ returns when the passage begins with Him being here. What's with that?
He's not here physically. Yet. Nor did He not leave, physically

If you wish to break up the passage into various time frames then back it with scripture and not just your assumptions.
i did

Why isn't the throne of his glory the judgement seat? After all he is passing judgement.
We can call it a judgment seat if you want. No problem.
"Judgment seat," however, as an exact NT phrase, is only used for God and Christ in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10

Also, whether they are sheep or goats does not deny that they are people who will be judged by their works and their eternal destiny will be decided at that time, which was what the OP referred to.
Neither do i deny it. I confess it, in post 29. And by inference in post 11.
I'm sorry: i thought your OP referred to more than Mt 25:31-46 only

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I'll get back to you an this Writer. I'm very busy right now and need more time to review it.

Terrywoodenpic said:

I can see little point in discussing this, when you demonstrate that you are unable to understand the meaning of simple scripture.

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Actually his is not necessarily and unsound way to address scripture. Their is little chance of making wrong assumptions when one takes the words to mean exactly what they say and to mean exactly what they refer to.

The concept of faith followed by works is really simple when looked at with scripture to interpret it. Faith, by scriptural definition, if the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith therefore is tangible, it is substance and evidence. Assuming that one's faith is therefore believed, one then acts on that evidence and substance.

For example, in the OT when the priests were crossing the Jordan carrying the Ark into the the promised land they stepped into the water as God told them to do. Bear in mind that at that time the spring floods had swollen the Jordan and stepping into it was not a prudent act. Yet they had faith that God told them to do something reasonable and acted on the substance of something hoped for and the evidence of something not seen. Their faith was tangible and actionable.

sandy whitelinger said:

I'll get back to you an this Writer. I'm very busy right now and need more time to review it.

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Writer, I've looked at your offering and have reached two conclusions. One is the same one I've reached earlier; trying to correct your misunderstandings and incorrect usage of scripture leads to you offering more misunderstandings and misuse of scripture and leads to an everwidening circle of discussion which is proving to be pointless.

Next, I've concluded that you are arguing a corollary to my original post and that is what happens at the judgement seat. What I gather from most of your posts is that you perceive that because the entire scope of Christ's judgement is not described in one clearly defined section of scripture that each mention of a judgement is separate from the others. I don't find that to be true in my own study.

The best I can see is that there may be one judgement of people at the beginning of the millennium (but this can't be uncatagorically stated as true) and another at the end. It can also be argued differently.

misunderstandings and incorrect usage of scripture
Care to try'n b more specific?

leads to you offering more misunderstandings and misuse of scripture
care to specify? Or try?
So that i don't misunderstand u as having little or nothing specific in mind?

and leads to an everwidening circle of discussion which is proving to be pointless.
"misunderstandings" is discussion. But it's kinda pointless w/o specifics

Next, I've concluded that you are arguing a corollary to my original post and that is what happens at the judgement seat.
i agree w/ your main point that believers are uncondemned eternally.

What I gather from most of your posts is that you perceive that because the entire scope of Christ's judgement is not described in one clearly defined section of scripture that each mention of a judgement is separate from the others.
there aren't That many judgments!

I don't find that to be true in my own study.
neither do i

The best I can see is that there may be one judgement of people at the beginning of the millennium and another at the end
i 'gree

(but this can't be uncatagorically stated as true)
i dis'gree

It can also be argued differently.
By all means, if u ever want, feel free to attempt here.
Thanks Sandy

adilrockstar said:

There will be several types of judgments:

The Judgment of the Believer's sins John 5:24

The Judgment of the Believer's Self 1 Corinthians 5:10

The Judgment of the Believer's Works 2 Corinthians 5:30

The Judgment of the Nations Matthew 25:31-46

The Judgment of the Wicked Revelation 20:11-15

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I think perhaps you missed one:
Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

This was posted in another thread and I wished to pick it up here:

sojourner said:

You don't believe that the NT says that we are to work out our own salvation?

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Well, literally the New Testament says that but in light of, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2 8-9 KJV) works cannot save anyone, which is what I think you are implying.

So the question becomes, is this a pre-salvation exhortation or a post-salvation exhortation? If it pre then we are to work out our faith since my conclusion of Scripture is that no work will save you. If it is a post-salvation exhortation then it is irrelevant to getting saved. I believe that the tone of the passage is that Paul is talking to the saved.

sandy whitelinger said:

Righteousness by Faith

Judgement day will come for every one of us: “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment…” Hebrews 9:27 Each of us will come before the judgement seat of Christ and will be judged according to our works: “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” II Corinthians 5:10 (Also Matthew 16:27, John 5:27-29, Romans 2:5-11, I Peter 1:17, II Peter 2:9, Revelation 20:12 &13) The eternal destination of every person will be finalized there (Matthew 25:31-46).

Judgement will be according to law for both the Jew and the Gentile: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts…) in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Romans 2:12-16

There are two sets of laws that we can be judged by, the Mosaic Law and the law of faith: “By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” Romans 3:27b (Also Romans 7:25)

Unfortunately no one is justified under the Mosaic Law. The law was given because of transgressions and under the law, all are found guilty. (Romans 3:19) Works done under the Mosaic Law cannot gain an individual eternal life: “…for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.” Gal 2:16b (also Acts 13:39, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11, Titus 3:5, Hebrews 7:19, 10:1)

Still, scripture points out that, at the judgement seat, those whose have done good works will enter into eternal life. So the question arises, how can anyone be judged righteous by their works when the Bible is clear that no one is justified by works of the Mosaic Law.

Scripture states that only by faith can we be found righteous in the eyes of God. Without the works of the law, faith is counted for righteousness: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.” Romans 4:5-7 (Also Romans 5:1, 9:30-31, Galatians 3:24, 5:5, Philippians 3:9, Hebrews 11:7)

What we are left with then is reconciling the concept of righteousness by faith and righteousness by good works on the day of judgement. At the judgement seat we need to be judged not by the works of the Law of Moses but by the law of faith in order to be found righteous: “By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:27b-28 (Also Romans 3:21-22, 8:2, Galatians 6:2, 7:22-25, 8:2, James 2:12) The faith of Christ, upon belief in Him, imputes righteousness unto you as well as creates in you the ability to do works worthy of being called righteous in the eyes of God: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”Ephesians 2:10(Also Romans 6:4, 8:29, Galatians 2:20-21,6:15, Ephesians 4:24, Philippians 1:10-11, Titus 3:5, Hebrews 11:32-33, 13:20-21, I John 2:29, 3:9, 3:24, 4:7, 4:16-17, 5:18)

This happens because God separates the works of our flesh (which are judged under the Mosaic Law) from the works of the Spirit of God indwelling us (which are judged by the law of faith) (Romans 7:15-25). According to God that part of us that commits sin is dead as are the works done in the flesh: “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him [Christ], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Romans 6:6(also Romans 6:11, 7:5, 8:10, 8:13, Galatians 5:24, Colossians 3:9-10, I Peter 4:1-2)

The good works that we are lead to do happen because the Spirit of God is dwelling in us. These are the works that will be deemed righteous on the day of judgement and will be rewarded with eternal life. Some say that eternal life is both faith in Christ and good works. In the eyes of God those that believe in Him are created to do good works and the evil works wrought by the flesh are no longer part of our body of works.

Will we be granted eternal life by the faith of Christ? Most certainly. Will believers be found righteous on the day of judgement by our good works? It is impossible to be found otherwise. That’s what believers were created in Christ to do, good works.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

Romans 7:25

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(NASB)Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
(NASB)Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
(NASB)1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

Working on a response. Saving these for now.

e r.m. said:

(NASB)Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
(NASB)Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
(NASB)1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

Working on a response. Saving these for now.

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I addressed each of these verses in post #3.

sandy whitelinger said:

I addressed each of these verses in post #3.

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I know you did.