Religion and probability

This is the reason, as a young adult I have never been able to accept any religion. I think deep down I would like to believe that somebody knows the path to heaven, but rationally I know that they don't.

You see, the combinations of possible things one must do/believe in order to appease whatever God there may be and get into heaven are infinite. This is proven by the many religions/religious sects out there who claim to be the 'only way'.And even all of these could easily be completely wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a God out there of sorts, the chances that anyone is precisely appeasing him are as close to zero as possible. Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

If there is no God, your caricature of religion as a means of "precisely appeasing him" and "being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death" is, of course, irrelevant. If there is a God, your religion of contemptuous indecision would appear to have little to commend it.

Perhaps a better place to start would be to give more thought to an honest and informed definition of religion.

Sportman1987 said:

Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

Click to expand...

I don't see how anyone call prove it "right" either...........

Jay said:

If there is no God, your caricature of religion as a means of "precisely appeasing him" and "being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death" is, of course, irrelevant. If there is a God, your religion of contemptuous indecision would appear to have little to commend it.

Perhaps a better place to start would be to give more thought to an honest and informed definition of religion.

Click to expand...

Which is why I far prefer to call my beliefs "My faith" which are my beliefs about my relationship with a God in which I believe (without my needing any proof of his existance).

After seeing the path my self once at 23 and then coming from there to begin with:

Easiest can make it is:

Heaven’s real name should be Oneness = live it, believe it, achieve it and be it!

Levels between = 10 dimensions (13 diadems in Bible) as now written or commandments looked at in full global perspective and what I saw looking down from the 13th dimension = :angel2:….was a great privilege to do so, as to explain and help here.

EGO = Blame, remorse sorrow, jealousy, regret….list goes on and on of Ego’s and as Satan means the accuser of the soul….this is why 95% of people are schizophrenics and talk back to their own EGO :-?

there are a bunch of Biblical passages that people cite as evidence that Christianity is the correct faith. What frustrates me about the following line of reasoning is that they are applicable and have been applied to just about every other world religion. In fact, these "arguments" can be made no matter who is speaking.

Every organized, written religion makes some of these arguments, to try to explain the diversity of religions. The problem with them is:

**Everybody** makes these arguments. From an outsider's perspective, nobody is different. From an insider's perspective, "we" are inevitably right, and "they" are inevitably wrong.

"Jesus says: the Godly will hear me. The sinful will not listen".

I say: the Godly will hear me. The sinful will not listen.

See, anybody can say that. Millions have.


"Jesus says: My name will be hated among men."

I say: Carlos Castaneda said the same thing. And his anthropology is demonstrably a hoax.


"Doubting Thomas doubted and yet was converted."

For me, this story isn't so much about doubting Christianity, as it is about the harm of doubt in general. This story is repeated in many religions, and obviously employed by Castaneda.

Trying talking to a Castaneda follower. They are convinced that the world is blinded by doubt. And yet chronological discrepancies show that Castaneda invented Don Juan. Interesting.


"Christianity works therefore it is true. Look at the transformation in my life."

Buddhism works therefore it is true. Look at the transformation in my life.

"Christianity is the only way to God."

Any religion can say that.

"The devil is actively duping the non-believers. The Bible is the only protection against this evil force."

Hmm, sounds suspiciously like saying "I feel right and by some miracle I am, whereas the whole world feels that they are right, but for some reason aren't."

Anybody can say these things.


"The Bible describes God exactly I see Him."

Yeaaaahhh, and Muslims see Buddha praying to Zeus. Animists never stop seeing Christ and the cross, and yet remain animists. That's sarcasm. Everybody sees what they expect to see.


"They are being fooled by the devil."

The only difference is the person speaking.

But let's hit this point last:

Even if there was some cosmic confluence around the life of Jesus: even if my doubts are wrong about the eclipse, even if He rose on the third day, even if he walked on water and performed miracles, again, none of this means that Jesus Christ had a monopoly on truth.

All sorts of powerful signs and strange events happen in my life all the time, and the more in sync I become, the more bizarre my life becomes.

So what if the very universe came out to greet Jesus Christ. The very universe comes to greet me every day, and I'm just not paying attention.

Sportman1987 said:

This is the reason, as a young adult I have never been able to accept any religion. I think deep down I would like to believe that somebody knows the path to heaven, but rationally I know that they don't.

You see, the combinations of possible things one must do/believe in order to appease whatever God there may be and get into heaven are infinite. This is proven by the many religions/religious sects out there who claim to be the 'only way'.And even all of these could easily be completely wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a God out there of sorts, the chances that anyone is precisely appeasing him are as close to zero as possible. Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

Click to expand...

Somebody does know the path to heaven but they will not spoil the story for us.

There is nothing you can do to appease God because His love for us does not change.

These religions, these people who talk like they know the truth, they know as much as you and I. Trust no one but do not necessarily distrust anyone either. Keep your mind open, listen, and at some point things will start to fit together. There are many pieces to this puzzle and some do not even belong on the table but you will find some that fit together.

Trust yourself. You can find the truth better than others on the earth who already think they've found it.

Religion is like suckers. you have the tootsie pop, the original (it may not be, but for the sake of the argument it is). apart from the tootsie pop, you have thousands of other brands, but none are quite as good as the original. religion is like that. you have one that is the original, the right one, and thousands that are good, but not quite as filling as the original. It's up to you to figure out which one makes the most sense, has the least gaps in it's belief system, is logically correct etc.

I was pretty much in the same spot you were 5 years ago. I have almost exactly the same mentality. However, i devoted a lot of time to research, to understand all the different religions. It helped immensely.

Sportman1987 said:

This is the reason, as a young adult I have never been able to accept any religion. I think deep down I would like to believe that somebody knows the path to heaven, but rationally I know that they don't.

You see, the combinations of possible things one must do/believe in order to appease whatever God there may be and get into heaven are infinite. This is proven by the many religions/religious sects out there who claim to be the 'only way'.And even all of these could easily be completely wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a God out there of sorts, the chances that anyone is precisely appeasing him are as close to zero as possible. Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

Click to expand...

Why do you assume that if there is a God, it requires appeasement? Or that if there is a God, there must be a heaven, and getting into it is the purpose of faith?

Honestly, none of that is a good reason for faith. Faith isn't - or shouldn't be - about fear, or anticipation of rewards.

Either you believe, or you don't. Either way, you should try to live righteously, in accordance with your ethics. "God will understand. And if He does not, then He is not God, and we need not worry."

Forgive me, but your post makes it seem as if you've accepted Pascal's Wager, and just don't know which religion to bet on. Problem is, Pascal's Wager is a sucker's bet.

jimbob said:

Religion is like suckers. you have the tootsie pop, the original (it may not be, but for the sake of the argument it is). apart from the tootsie pop, you have thousands of other brands, but none are quite as good as the original. religion is like that. you have one that is the original, the right one, and thousands that are good, but not quite as filling as the original. It's up to you to figure out which one makes the most sense, has the least gaps in it's belief system, is logically correct etc.

I was pretty much in the same spot you were 5 years ago. I have almost exactly the same mentality. However, i devoted a lot of time to research, to understand all the different religions. It helped immensely.

Click to expand...

I do see religion as like suckers (not for suckers ).

In my life, I ask: why stick with only one flavor? It seems to me that some people will like one flavor better than another. And that some will benefit from one idea more than another.

You're right that, probably, one religion is more true than the others. But we're not really at a point in our humanity right now that we can really decide. Each individual can decide, but I think humanity and myself included, are usually too busy being "right" to seek "truth."

It seems to me that we would have to find a level of inner peace about 10 levels higher in order to have a constructive exchange between normal people.

The Purple Knight

jimbob said:

Religion is like suckers. you have the tootsie pop, the original (it may not be, but for the sake of the argument it is). apart from the tootsie pop, you have thousands of other brands, but none are quite as good as the original. religion is like that. you have one that is the original, the right one, and thousands that are good, but not quite as filling as the original. It's up to you to figure out which one makes the most sense, has the least gaps in it's belief system, is logically correct etc.

I was pretty much in the same spot you were 5 years ago. I have almost exactly the same mentality. However, i devoted a lot of time to research, to understand all the different religions. It helped immensely.

Click to expand...

I agree, but I suspect you are not talking about Vedism.

Sportman1987 said:

This is the reason, as a young adult I have never been able to accept any religion. I think deep down I would like to believe that somebody knows the path to heaven, but rationally I know that they don't.

You see, the combinations of possible things one must do/believe in order to appease whatever God there may be and get into heaven are infinite. This is proven by the many religions/religious sects out there who claim to be the 'only way'.And even all of these could easily be completely wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a God out there of sorts, the chances that anyone is precisely appeasing him are as close to zero as possible. Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

Click to expand...

That does kind of sound like Pascal's wager. I just wrote a little about that in my blog here. Here's my conclusion:

Anyway, it might not be as simple odds as Blaise set out in his aplogetics, but the thing is, we all place our bets whether we do so intentionally or not. There is or isn't an afterlife, there is or isn't a God, A More, connected to that afterlife, that God either is or is not of the punishing sort, and that punishment either is or is not related to some kind of perfect 'belief,' and the possible arrangement of those beliefs is almost infinite.

Very high odds indeed.

If God cares about all of those things.

And is a god who would set up such insurmountable odds worthy of our trust and worship? No. Such a god would be a cruel monster and would probably throw us into hell for the hell of it regardless of anything we believe or do.

So if God is good, trustworthy, and worthy of our worship, the odds must be very high that we will win if we play, much better than Pascal suggested. With a trustworthy God you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Except perhaps your self.

OK, maybe that was something of a dramatic flourish there at the end, but we do each have our religion, intentionally or not, so why not make it a good one?

lunamoth said:

That does kind of sound like Pascal's wager. I just wrote a little about that in my blog here. Here's my conclusion:

Anyway, it might not be as simple odds as Blaise set out in his aplogetics, but the thing is, we all place our bets whether we do so intentionally or not. There is or isn't an afterlife, there is or isn't a God, A More, connected to that afterlife, that God either is or is not of the punishing sort, and that punishment either is or is not related to some kind of perfect 'belief,' and the possible arrangement of those beliefs is almost infinite.

Very high odds indeed.

If God cares about all of those things.

And is a god who would set up such insurmountable odds worthy of our trust and worship? No. Such a god would be a cruel monster and would probably throw us into hell for the hell of it regardless of anything we believe or do.

So if God is good, trustworthy, and worthy of our worship, the odds must be very high that we will win if we play, much better than Pascal suggested. With a trustworthy God you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Except perhaps your self.

OK, maybe that was something of a dramatic flourish there at the end, but we do each have our religion, intentionally or not, so why not make it a good one?

Click to expand...

The problem I have with Pascal's wager is this: I agree that I choose religion over materialism (because I'm doing the best I can with this life), but the question becomes: how do we choose which religion to follow? Or should we follow more than one?

CV

Sportman1987 said:

This is the reason, as a young adult I have never been able to accept any religion. I think deep down I would like to believe that somebody knows the path to heaven, but rationally I know that they don't.

You see, the combinations of possible things one must do/believe in order to appease whatever God there may be and get into heaven are infinite. This is proven by the many religions/religious sects out there who claim to be the 'only way'.And even all of these could easily be completely wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a God out there of sorts, the chances that anyone is precisely appeasing him are as close to zero as possible. Therefore, to me religion as a means of being closer to some sort of 'God' or making it somewhere after death is redundant. And I cannot see how anyone can possibly prove this as wrong.

Click to expand...

why do you want to go to heaven ? according to the bible the mild tempered will inherit the earth matthew 5;5 . many people think that heaven is the best place to go, but the bible promises that the earth will be brought back to paradise condtions and then it will be a place to have real peace forever . and the Almighty is gathering a GREAT CROWD to get through the GREAT TRIBULATION REVELATION 7;9-10 and that is the TRUTH from the bible .

The righteous themselves will possess the earth,​

And they will reside forever upon it.psalm 37;29

​

(Psalm 37:9) For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

(Proverbs 2:21) For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.
​

(Matthew 5:5) "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.