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Some Thoughts on Catholicism and the Current State of Things

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
These past few weeks I have been thinking a lot about the Catholic faith, my relationship with it, and how it should be taught and articulated in the modern era. For the past few years I took a more or less traditionalist stance. This was less an intellectual commitment so much as a reaction against a spirit of pervasive banality that defined Catholicism as I experienced it growing up.

But today the issues extend far beyond liturgy but also to doctrine. To the content of the Christian faith itself. Should the Church make concessions secular modernity or should the Church insist on the perennial truths of Christian revelation? Can the Church even make any such concessions without falsifying its own claims about itself?

For the traditionalist the answer is a maximalist commitment to everything the Church has historically taught. And indeed given this maximalist commitment it follows that the hierarchy has little power to substantially change much of anything. Disciplinary measures can change and some doctrines may further develop over time, but the Church may never contradict its past teachings.

For the progressive the answer is to take the opposite view. To believe that everything is subject to change because doctrine is a contingent product and of culture and history. Christianity is a dialectic where the will of God for any given time is revealed though the discernment of the zeitgeist. Under this view it is the job of Pope Francis to lead the Church towards a new era of openness and listening thus freeing the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to ever greater heights inclusivity and social justice.

To the traditionalist side: Certain teachings of the modern Magisterium do contradict what has been taught in the past. But the more I think about this the less I see that as a problem. Not everything the Church has taught is infallible truth. Some if not much of what has been taught in the past is contingent on historical and cultural circumstances. I have come to think that the Church has shot itself in the foot with a too expansive notion of what was infallible. Perhaps our modern circumstances are a providential correction to this inflated notion of the Church's infallibly.

To the progressive side: Your vision of Christianity is vacuous. If Christian moral teaching is the mere affirmation of the prevailing opinions of secular modernity then Christianity is meaningless. Christianity cannot be reduced to a mere therapeutic theism wherein everyone's feelings are affirmed. No, Christianity posits a definitive moral reality to which we humans are accountable. If Catholicism is true then the natural law (yet alone the divine law) is real and the fashionable sins of our time are immoral intrinsically. No, there can be no negotiation with Asmodeus. (Yet alone Moloch). The world must conform itself to Christ, not Christ to the world.

While I have grown somewhat disillusioned with the traditionalists I think their error is less severe than the progressivist error, which is little more than de facto atheism masquerading as Christian faith.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
While I have grown somewhat disillusioned with the traditionalists I think their error is less severe than the progressivist error, which is little more than de facto atheism masquerading as Christian faith.

I applaud this sentence. Well said.
The ghost of Arianism is haunting the RCC, and I can provide with a couple of examples.

I also perfectly agree with the stance on radical traditionalism, that aims at supporting the total infallibility of the Church. Which is impossible, since only God was totally infallible.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
No, there can be no negotiation with Asmodeus. (Yet alone Moloch). The world must conform itself to Christ, not Christ to the world.

Christians must conform to the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospel. Sinners were not turned away.
In your argument about inclusivity the Church is not saying they are not sinners. If the Church turned away every sinner, it would be empty.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Christians must conform to the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospel. Sinners were not turned away.
In your argument about inclusivity the Church is not saying they are not sinners. If the Church turned away every sinner, it would be empty.

If we speak of Jesus, Jesus chased away the moneychangers from the Temple.
Was he inclusive?
I don't think so. He was saying: sin no more, and then God can include you.
 

Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
If we speak of Jesus, Jesus chased away the moneychangers from the Temple.
Was he inclusive?
I don't think so. He was saying: sin no more, and then God can include you.

Really? The message I got from that parable was that the money changers were using the house of god as a house of exploitation for profit off of the backs of the poor
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Really? The message I got from that parable was that the money changers were using the house of god as a house of exploitation for profit off of the backs of the poor

Exactly, and it angered both the Jewish and Roman establishment.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
To the progressive side: Your vision of Christianity is vacuous. If Christian moral teaching is the mere affirmation of the prevailing opinions of secular modernity then Christianity is meaningless.

If you are referring to the Pope's 'inclusivity', he clearly states the difference between a 'sin' and a 'crime'.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
You need to look at the close association between the two establishments. They were interdependent.
I think the Jewish Sanhedrin would praise Zealots and their work in secret. So there wasn't any kind of alliance with the Romans, I guess.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If you are referring to the Pope's 'inclusivity', he clearly states the difference between a 'sin' and a 'crime'.

Freemasons within the Vatican walls is wrong.
So if inclusivity means to accept them, well...then this Pope is wrong.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
I think the Jewish Sanhedrin would praise Zealots and their work in secret. So there wasn't any kind of alliance with the Romans, i guess.


The Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate, effectively appointed Caiaphas as high priest. Pilate could remove an uncooperative priest by refusing to give him the sacred vestments worn to enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. Since Caiaphas remained high priest during Pilate's entire tenure as prefect, it seems clear that they had a good working relationship.

If as the Gospels relate, Jesus caused a disturbance in the Temple after his arrival, this would certainly alarm both Jewish and Roman authorities: a Galilean troublemaker might be planning to start a Passover riot. Pilate would want to keep the peace. So would Caiaphas, who could reasonably fear, that violence could lead to the destruction of the Temple, as indeed eventually occurred (see John 11:48-50).
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
These past few weeks I have been thinking a lot about the Catholic faith, my relationship with it, and how it should be taught and articulated in the modern era. For the past few years I took a more or less traditionalist stance. This was less an intellectual commitment so much as a reaction against a spirit of pervasive banality that defined Catholicism as I experienced it growing up.

But today the issues extend far beyond liturgy but also to doctrine. To the content of the Christian faith itself. Should the Church make concessions secular modernity or should the Church insist on the perennial truths of Christian revelation? Can the Church even make any such concessions without falsifying its own claims about itself?

For the traditionalist the answer is a maximalist commitment to everything the Church has historically taught. And indeed given this maximalist commitment it follows that the hierarchy has little power to substantially change much of anything. Disciplinary measures can change and some doctrines may further develop over time, but the Church may never contradict its past teachings.

For the progressive the answer is to take the opposite view. To believe that everything is subject to change because doctrine is a contingent product and of culture and history. Christianity is a dialectic where the will of God for any given time is revealed though the discernment of the zeitgeist. Under this view it is the job of Pope Francis to lead the Church towards a new era of openness and listening thus freeing the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to ever greater heights inclusivity and social justice.

To the traditionalist side: Certain teachings of the modern Magisterium do contradict what has been taught in the past. But the more I think about this the less I see that as a problem. Not everything the Church has taught is infallible truth. Some if not much of what has been taught in the past is contingent on historical and cultural circumstances. I have come to think that the Church has shot itself in the foot with a too expansive notion of what was infallible. Perhaps our modern circumstances are a providential correction to this inflated notion of the Church's infallibly.

To the progressive side: Your vision of Christianity is vacuous. If Christian moral teaching is the mere affirmation of the prevailing opinions of secular modernity then Christianity is meaningless. Christianity cannot be reduced to a mere therapeutic theism wherein everyone's feelings are affirmed. No, Christianity posits a definitive moral reality to which we humans are accountable. If Catholicism is true then the natural law (yet alone the divine law) is real and the fashionable sins of our time are immoral intrinsically. No, there can be no negotiation with Asmodeus. (Yet alone Moloch). The world must conform itself to Christ, not Christ to the world.

While I have grown somewhat disillusioned with the traditionalists I think their error is less severe than the progressivist error, which is little more than de facto atheism masquerading as Christian faith.

If you know anything from history, the Catholic Church started to form in the 4th century AD, after Rome made Christianity the official religion of Rome. This honor was a reward to the Christian soldiers who fought for Rome. They were the Empire's best soldiers in battle. They were fearless and well prepared to win.

The new amalgam of Rome and Christianity, with Rome originally leading, would transform Christianity and Rome, to where the merger would became a paradox of spiritual and secular needs. Blessed are poor while also being a very rich country. The charisma of faith walk along side of the logic and technology of Rome. From this paradox of opposites would emerge the Catholic Church.

The prophesies of Revelation predicted a 1000 year reign of peace, which may have lasted from about 400 AD to 1400AD; Holy Roman Empire. This was a time of peace in the sense of Christianity safely wrapped inside the arms of a world super power, with a Pope the head of state. The Pope was considered a hand of God on earth to parallel the prophecy.

In the 14th century, changes began. The Catholic Church began to divide; Protestant Movement, Age of Exploration and Alchemy leading to science. The paradox of opposites within the 14th century church; end of the reign of peace, started to break down into its original halves, a little at a time; clones of the Catholic Church, with some clones much more Roman; Spanish Inquisition, and other much more early Christian; Quakers. Atheism would also appear, more in the model of Rome.

The Catholic Church would continue to evolve and shift, gradually shed the darker nature of its Roman side; brutality, greed and sexual perversion. It is still seeking the best way to honor the positives sides of both Rome and Christianity.

Today the strict atheists persecute the stricter Christians, as did the early Romans before the merger. Hitler would have fallen at the 95% Roman side of the split; goose step was from Rome. The Atheist once again started to persecute the Christians, like before the merger. But they are not as brutal, today. There has been a softening of human nature; 1000 years of merger.

I like the idea of the Catholic Church finding it own place in the evolution of the Christianity. They are the foundation, on which all the rest have been built after 1400AD.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The bible supported slavery, and apologists argue that it was a necessary concession to the culture at the time, despite being a heinous injustice.

Why can't it make cultural concessions today, especially ones that are indisputably just?

Religion has to evolve and adapt to avoid becoming a stagnant, toxic pool of obsolescence.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
If you know anything from history, the Catholic Church started to form in the 4th century AD, after Rome made Christianity the official religion of Rome. This honor was a reward to the Christian soldiers who fought for Rome. They were the Empire's best soldiers in battle. They were fearless and well prepared to win.

The new amalgam of Rome and Christianity, with Rome originally leading, would transform Christianity and Rome, to where the merger would became a paradox of spiritual and secular needs. Blessed are poor while also being a very rich country. The charisma of faith walk along side of the logic and technology of Rome. From this paradox of opposites would emerge the Catholic Church...
I appreciate what you are saying. I took a course in Western Civ. I hated hearing the negative information about Christianity, and so I found it confusing. I absorbed a lot though.

I have no catholic background. The beautiful thing which catholicism brings (and Christianity to whomever prefers) is forgiveness which surpasses understanding. Many people considering themselves very good and very righteous nevertheless daydream about the pleasure of seeing evildoers punished. I know I do when I forget not to or when I watch a film with a particularly odious villain. That is human nature. What catholicism brings to the entire world is a treaty of forgiveness for all, and it banishes such daydreams. Everything about this world has been transformed already as a direct result. The world today is no longer what it was. War is not honorable. It is not even considered necessary.

The paradox to which you refer is a spiritual battle. I think it is this which Revelation refers to when it talks about "War in heaven." The 'Amalgam' of Christianity and Rome are purposeful, because lepers are healed through touch not words. Every child is a victory who grows up well supported with love. To quote Jesus even a rock can become a child of Abraham, so let the rocks cry out Hosanna. This is not something everyone can accept. I call it 'Advanced material'.

People who call themselves catholic have more wiggle room than traditionalists or progressives. I respect both groups of people, however it is the cup of Christ not the cup of traditionalists or the cup of progressives. Imagine lightning and thunder jumping out of a cup. See it. Its all about that cup, bringing people to it. Its not about fences or handwashing or "You must be this tall to ride."

The Catholic Church would continue to evolve and shift, gradually shed the darker nature of its Roman side; brutality, greed and sexual perversion. It is still seeking the best way to honor the positives sides of both Rome and Christianity.
'Evolve' is fine. I think of it as 'Dissolve'.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think the Jewish Sanhedrin would praise Zealots and their work in secret. So there wasn't any kind of alliance with the Romans, I guess.
The Sanhedrin took the position of not rocking the boat with the Romans because the response from the latter could be quite brutal. OTOH, the Zealots wanted the Romans out and any fellow Jews who cooperated with them. Jesus did not condemn the Sanhedrin, but he did condemn the action of the Zealots in terms of them using violence.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If you know anything from history, the Catholic Church started to form in the 4th century AD, after Rome made Christianity the official religion of Rome. This honor was a reward to the Christian soldiers who fought for Rome. They were the Empire's best soldiers in battle. They were fearless and well prepared to win.
Actually, it goes way back then as the Church that Jesus and the Apostles created, although the name "catholic" was not used back then as "the Way" was. "Catholic" [universal] as a descriptor was used in the latter 2nd century along with "orthodox" [truth], but "Christian" became more used as an official name. Thus, as you say above, from Constantine on, "Catholic" became the mostly used official label.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Christians must conform to the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospel. Sinners were not turned away.
In your argument about inclusivity the Church is not saying they are not sinners. If the Church turned away every sinner, it would be empty.
The Church must turn away those who refuse the call to repentance; who demand their sins be endorsed. A doctor cannot treat someone who refuses medicine; likewise the Church cannot restore an obstinate sinner to sanctifying grace.

If you are referring to the Pope's 'inclusivity', he clearly states the difference between a 'sin' and a 'crime'.
The issue are those in the Church brandishing the jargon of secular modernity to undermine Catholic moral theology.

synod-1024x1024.jpg
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The issue are those in the Church brandishing the jargon of secular modernity to undermine Catholic moral theology.
Personally, I do think that the issue of not having female priests should be revisited as conditions now are much different than they were 2000 years ago.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The Church must turn away those who refuse the call to repentance; who demand their sins be endorsed. A doctor cannot treat someone who refuses medicine; likewise the Church cannot restore an obstinate sinner to sanctifying grace.

As Church we are a body of sinners. Is one greater than another? And according to Pius 12,
"The conscience is the innermost and most secret nucleus of man. There he withdraws with his intellectual capacities into complete separation, alone with himself or better, alone with God, whose voice echoes in his conscience. There he decides over good or bad. There chooses between victory or defeat. The conscience is therefore, to use an old, venerable picture, a sanctuary, on whose entrance all must stop." This respect applies to children and even more to adults: "It is correctly argued, that the true meaning of adult independence is not to be led like a little Child."

Judgement is not to us to make, but to God alone.
 
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