Evidence -- making it useful

muhammad_isa · Jan 26, 2023

SkepticThinker said:
Enlighten us then.
What are the facts and probabilities about gods? And how did you calculate those probabilities?

Well, you can start off by reading the wiki page..
Religion - Wikipedia

..or maybe that is too basic for you..
..maybe you know a lot about religion, but pretend it is all the same, and you're not interested.

F1fan · Jan 26, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
If that was true, then there would be nothing to talk about..

Given that you offer no facts that your version of god exists you must agree with what I said. If you wanted to rebut what I said you would list all the facts that demonsrates ANY version of ANY god exists outside of human imagination.

So what we end up talking about is how theists have no facts, but believe anyway.

..but then, as far as your concerned, there is only fiction .. or historical fiction.

The historical facts show us that gods were invented. And as I have pointed out to you your Yahweh was part of a polytheistic system, along with El, Baal, and Asherah. What happened to those gods if they are real?

I am interested in understanding what is true about reality, not what kind of lore is passed around among social tribes. Notice your religious tribe differs from other religious tribes. Even your tribe has two major divisions, and then manuy more subsets. Do religions have truth? Not objectively.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 26, 2023

SkepticThinker said:
Faith is useless in science. I have no need for faith, since anything can be believed on faith, it isn't a useful pathway to truth.
I don't have to take anything in science on faith. It's the complete opposite of religion in that way, because science is EVIDENCE-BASED.
Not sure if you know this or not, but scientists publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals that anybody can read and see their evidence for themselves.

So the questions would be, does science fully understand any of the evidence they are using, how much of it is really based on the faith they have in the evidence?

Example. Much scientific research has been done on the brain, how it works and where memory is stored. They come to many conclusions based on what they have determined is sound evidence.

Yet they make many evidence based conclusions about the brain, thought and memory, without knowing the essence of the human, let alone the brain.

Yet a Messenger knows the essence of the human, they know where our thoughts come from, they understand creation, it's beginning and it's end. They can direct our thoughts to useful science.

Until we understand that our rational capacity is external from the body, I see science is not able to evolve in its research on the brain.

Regards Tony

muhammad_isa · Jan 26, 2023

F1fan said:
The historical facts show us that gods were invented..

Your opinion.

You choose to simplify the question of Divinity, and say "gods are invented". OK

F1fan · Jan 26, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
Your opinion.

False. I am defering to what historians report. I understand your ongoing problem with these historical facts, but that is the dilemma of religion in the 21st century.

You choose to simplify the question of Divinity, and say "gods are invented". OK

I defer to what facts and reason conclude. If you belive in divinity then you do so without there being facts and a reasoned conclusion. Your debate style is one that denies facts and valid conclusions, and also repeats typical religious claims without any fact or argument as to why you think they are true. By default your beliefs are rejected, as you offer no explanation why a rational mind would agree with you.

Subduction Zone · Jan 26, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
Your opinion.

You choose to simplify the question of Divinity, and say "gods are invented". OK

It is a very bad sign when you have to repeatedly rely on strawman arguments.

muhammad_isa · Jan 26, 2023

F1fan said:
If you belive in divinity then you do so without there being facts and a reasoned conclusion..

That's just childish..
If you aren't interested in studies of Divinity, and think it's all nonsense, then that's fine.
..but don't expect everybody to agree with you.

PearlSeeker · Jan 27, 2023

PureX said:
I don't understand why you think that matters. It works. It saves lives. It changes people for the better when nothing else can. It doesn't matter whether God exists or not. We will never know, anyway. What matters is the possibility. Because it's through that possibility that we can find a reason to hope, and a reason to act of that hope. That's what faith is: the choice to act of our hope when we otherwise have no reason to. And when it works for us, it works. And that's what matters. That's all that matters.

Everything you believe, you believe because it "works" according to your experience of the world. And faith is no different. if the mechanism of one's faith requires trusting in an unknown possibility, so be it. What matters is that it works i the end result. For huge numbers of people and in lots of different ways.

Yes, it works for sure. And I'm glad for all the people who are happier because of it.
But it works only as long as you believe it's not just in your head. Look for example at fake notouch martial arts masters.

Muffled · Jan 27, 2023

Subduction Zone said:
That would hardly qualify as evidence. The problem with such occurrences is that people never seem to know how to test them properly.

I believe then the question is not whether events occurred but whether they were properly understood. I believe healing makes more sense than spontaneous recuperation which is no better than a long shot at best.

Muffled · Jan 27, 2023

Nakosis said:
IMO, you have what you have whether God wills it or not. Just like everyone else.
It is enough for me too.

I believe that is not true. I have sobriety because of God whereas many people do not have that because they are not in God's will.

Subduction Zone · Jan 27, 2023

Muffled said:
I believe then the question is not whether events occurred but whether they were properly understood. I believe healing makes more sense than spontaneous recuperation which is no better than a long shot at best.

Now what are you talking about? I got lost here.

Subduction Zone · Jan 27, 2023

PearlSeeker said:
Yes, it works for sure. And I'm glad for all the people who are happier because of it.
But it works only as long as you believe it's not just in your head. Look for example at fake notouch martial arts masters.

Not fair. He had a cold that day. His taxes were due. The dog ate his homework!!

Muffled · Jan 27, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
We do have evidence .. but you don't accept it.
The evidence is the Bible & Qur'an.

I believe the problem is that there is no way to test that evidence. Healing for instance is not automatic. Some prayers are answered and some are not. So a person can't test the concept of answers to prayer because the results can vary. We can test the occurrences of answers to prayer if we have a living testimony.

Muffled · Jan 27, 2023

Subduction Zone said:
Now what are you talking about? I got lost here.

I believe I am talking about testing methodologies.

Subduction Zone · Jan 27, 2023

Muffled said:
I believe the problem is that there is no way to test that evidence. Healing for instance is not automatic. Some prayers are answered and some are not. So a person can't test the concept of answers to prayer because the results can vary. We can test the occurrences of answers to prayer if we have a living testimony.

Then why call it "evidence"? To be considered evidence it first must be reliable. And if you can't test it it cannot be reliable. What you are discussing are anecdotes and stories. They are not evidence.

Subduction Zone · Jan 27, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
That's just childish..
If you aren't interested in studies of Divinity, and think it's all nonsense, then that's fine.
..but don't expect everybody to agree with you.

He appears to be interested in serious studies of divinity. No need for an upper case letter until after you make your case. The problem is that the believers in various gods here do not seem to know how to support their beliefs.

Nakosis · Jan 27, 2023

Muffled said:
I believe that is not true. I have sobriety because of God whereas many people do not have that because they are not in God's will.

I have sobriety due to failing health. I guess I could blame God for that.

muhammad_isa · Jan 27, 2023

Muffled said:
I believe the problem is that there is no way to test that evidence..

We can't go back in a time machine and see for ourselves,
if that's what you mean.

I think it makes a lot of difference on the attitude one has when they are reading them. If a person dislikes something they read, they are likely to reject it.

..so yes .. psychology most surely is involved here.

muhammad_isa · Jan 27, 2023

Subduction Zone said:
..The problem is that the believers in various gods here do not seem to know how to support their beliefs.

We are not all barristers.
Religious belief is a personal thing, in any case.
We will all have different reasons for following a particular faith....and it isn't always "because it's the truth".

Subduction Zone · Jan 27, 2023

muhammad_isa said:
We are not all barristers.
Religious belief is a personal thing, in any case.
We will all have different reasons for following a particular faith....and it isn't always "because it's the truth".

This thread is about evidence. If you don't understand the concept what are you doing here?

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