I've Been Thinking About Predestination Again

Glaurung · Jan 2, 2023

The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

Ella S. · Jan 2, 2023

Lovecraftian is precisely the word I would use to describe the cosmogony of this form of Christianity. For the life of a nonbeliever in such a world, I'd use a different word: Kafkaesque.

Have you read The Trial by Franz Kafka? In it, the main character is put on trial for violating the law, although he doesn't know what law he supposedly violated and doesn't understand why he's on trial. That's essentially what the majority of people who have ever lived would experience at their time of cosmic justice according to the Christian perspective you set forward here.

Definitely not my concept of "justice."

Estro Felino · Jan 3, 2023

The metaphor of the two children drowning is very suitable and significant.

I think granting us free will is an act of love. But free will is also a weapon. It's not something pleasant.
I liken it to a very sharp knife. Metaphorically.
You can do countless useful things with a knife. Cut the meat, cut vegetables...you can even cut a sculpture out of wood.
But you can also kill a person with the same knife.

The knife is the freedom of choice. The freedom of being free to do whatever you want, and you can use your freedom to be wonderful, unspeakable things.
But also terrible things.

Glaurung · Jan 3, 2023

Estro Felino said:
I think granting us free will is an act of love.

That's the thing. If predestination is true then we don't really have free will in any way that matters. Christian teaching holds that the unaided human will is incapable of salvific faith. God chooses us, we ourselves cannot choose God.

Ella S. said:
Have you read The Trial by Franz Kafka?

I know what Kafkaesque means although I have yet to read anything by Kafka. I should change that.

Estro Felino · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
God chooses us, we ourselves cannot choose God.

God chooses nobody.

God loves everyone. There are neither wicked nor good in His mind.
God loves. Period.
Creation takes place thanks to His Love. Free will is a consequence of His Divine Love.

If I were God, I wouldn't be so partial and selfish to elect some people here and there, just because I like them. I would love anyone, and I would want anyone to be saved. And the only way possible is free will.
Giving everyone the possibility of salvation.

Brian2 · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

Romans 8:29-30 states, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Predestination seems associated with what God foreknew. God foreknew it and said, OK I'll allow that to happen and as in the case above, what He foreknew He also seems to give some positive reinforcement to.
God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. (1Tim 2:4)
Imo salvation can come through God's mercy at the final judgement and becoming a Christian is not the be all and end all of it. Some people live very moral lives and try to please God.
From my discussions about predestination the problem comes when someone sees God's foreknowledge as God deciding everything that is going to happen, so we have no free will in it. But of course God foreknows what we are going to freely decide to do.

PureX · Jan 3, 2023

I think the lesson here is to stop letting other people tell you what God and Christ are. Look for the answers you seek within your own heart. Let the divine spirit within you, guide you. Not some religious mumbo-jumbo.

But that, like faith itself, is your choice.

Brian2 · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
That's the thing. If predestination is true then we don't really have free will in any way that matters. Christian teaching holds that the unaided human will is incapable of salvific faith. God chooses us, we ourselves cannot choose God.

You could have a mistaken view of predestination and free will.
If a view of these things brings you to a contradiction in scripture then the view might be wrong and not the scriptures.
Isn't it Calvin who taught hard line predestination and made it hard for everyone to understand when the answer seems to be so simple from my pov.
Many are called (and that probably means that many are drawn to Jesus) but few are chosen. Some decide no (for whatever reasons) and others decide yes, they accept the faith offered to them.

Brickjectivity · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view...

Musing Bassist said:
God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation.

Musing Bassist said:
If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation.

I agree with you that individual predestination makes little sense, however please state why we should think that predestination is an inseparable part of Christianity. There is so far nothing but your word that this is part of Christianity. Is it from a verse in the bible? Is it from official roman catholic doctrine? Is it from a denomination?

Have you considered the comment in Ephesians 1:11 ? There could be a hint here that we are not chosen individually but that we opt to be in Christ.

[Eph 1:11 NIV] 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

PureX · Jan 3, 2023

Predestination is a moot concept, anyway.

Even if God knows and/or dictates my fate, I still don't know it, and so I must make my own choices, regardless. So from our perspective, it makes no difference at all whether our fate is predetermined or not. We still have to go through the process in ignorance, and therefor, willfully.

So there's no point at all in fretting about it.

Kenny · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

I think the issue here is not about Christianity but rather the issue of predestination which, IMV, is not the message in scripture.

Indeed, everyone does have a "shot at salvation".

Please note:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish

The word whoever, is all encompassing with no "pre-selected few" involved.

and again:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

"All" has no subset.

if there are scriptures that would have a hew of "predestination" - it would have the be judged with context and in light of God's desire that all should come to repentance.

Estro Felino · Jan 3, 2023

Brickjectivity said:
I agree with you that individual predestination makes little sense, however please state why we should think that predestination is an inseparable part of Christianity. There is so far nothing but your word that this is part of Christianity. Is it from a verse in the bible? Is it from official roman catholic doctrine? Is it from a denomination?

Have you considered the comment in Ephesians 1:11 ? There could be a hint here that we are not chosen individually but that we opt to be in Christ.

[Eph 1:11 NIV] 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

As for the Gospels? Is there a trace of such a doctrine?

RestlessSoul · Jan 3, 2023

Isn't the doctrine of predestination pretty much exclusive to Calvinists?

pearl · Jan 3, 2023

As we have seen in this study, according to the theological content of predestination the mandate to preach, teach, and believe this doctrine is not an oppressive one. It does not suggest that the faithful ought to gloomily speculate over their final destiny in a deterministic way. Rather, the doctrine provides for us a meditation on the God of the universe, which by his knowledge and will creates, sustains, and orders all things through, in, and for his love. Predestination then, is the eternal knowledge and love of God for human beings as they are created, sustained, healed, and ordered to a supernatural end. Even prior to sin and death, grace was required for man to share in the divine life. Thus in light of predestination, the sheer gratuitousness of God’s self-diffusive love is on display.

That God offers sufficient grace to all in Christ in a sincere desire for all to participate in the Trinitarian life, and the freedom to co-operate with grace, is revelatory of a divine Lover and the dignity imparted to the human race. All fear and anxiety is impotent before the reality of God’s gratuitous goodness. Predestination becomes “a delightful and joyful and liberating doctrine, all about the love of God and the glorious freedom of the sons of God.”291 Moreover, the eternal plan ought not to be understood as an impersonal force ordering destinies: Jesus Christ, predestined to be the Son of God by nature, reveals that we are “predestined to the adoption of sons, which is a participated likeness of natural sonship.”292 In other words, this doctrine says of God that not only is he transcendent Creator, but, immanent Redeemer. Through the Spirit and in Christ we are able to call God “Abba! Father!”293
AN HISTORICAL AND THEOLOGICAL SURVEY OF THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION (stthomas.edu)

Sand Dancer · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

I don't know how widespread predestination is, but some denominations are Calvinistic, but I think most aren't. I was a Calvinist for about week before I decided that was evil.

Shadow Wolf · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

You'd have to first start by showing free will exist. A belief doesn't make something true, and even many Christians have not been convinced by the claims of free will.

1213 · Jan 3, 2023

Musing Bassist said:
The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. ....

It would be nice to see the actual scriptures in the Bible for this case. But, I agree, God has power to elect anyone. However, He has chosen to select those who are righteous for eternal life (Matt. 25:46). Everyone could to be or become righteous, so I think it is fair.

Estro Felino · Jan 3, 2023

Shadow Wolf said:
You'd have to first start by showing free will exist. A belief doesn't make something true, and even many Christians have not been convinced by the claims of free will.

It's the law that says free will exists.
It's called competency.
Otherwise prisons would be empty because people would not be held accountable for their crimes.

Shadow Wolf · Jan 3, 2023

Estro Felino said:
It's the law that says free will exists.

What about it? The law says cannabis is more dangerous than crack and entirely without medical benefit. None of that is true.

Estro Felino said:
It's called competency.
Otherwise prisons would be empty because people would not be held accountable for their crimes.

I fail to see how the nonexistence of free will precludes punishing bad behaviors, defending yourself from those who do harm and facing the consequences of one's actions.

Brickjectivity · Jan 3, 2023

Estro Felino said:
As for the Gospels? Is there a trace of such a doctrine?

First, is there a trace of predestination? One passage to examine is John 13 in which Jesus says Judas is the one "Doomed to destruction," however Judas has already betrayed Jesus before this statement is made. Looking at John chapter 12 reveals this, so rather than declaring that Judas was predestined to betray he merely knows that the betrayal is in progress. For that reason I do not see Judas betrayal as predestined or something Judas exists to perform. Additionally other NT scriptures state that it is necessary for Jesus to obey and die because of it, but they do not state that he must be betrayed. Also Luke 6:16 states that Judas "Became a traitor." What makes Judas become a traitor? He is a thief. This is established in the story. Rather than being predestined to betray it is part of his character. He goes looking for money, and he is offered some silver.

In the parable of the seeds, everything depends upon what kind of person hears the message. It doesn't matter that the message is small, weak, merely a seed. No particular person is chosen, either. Instead the seed is put everywhere, and what happens is serendipity when a seed falls onto a good spot. This is a parable that excludes predestiny.

I've Been Thinking About Predestination Again

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